LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.06 (01) [E]

Tue Sep 6 15:08:22 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.05 (05) [E]

R.F. Hahn wrote:

> a succession of voices was heard predicting the imminent demise
> of
> the language and making much song and dance about its uselessness in the
> "modern" world.  These voices have kept going to this day, some outright
> hostile (a.k.a. "pragmatic"), others allegedly mournful and "resigned."

In other words: we need a 'Patentplatt' with words like 'Nettbreef'
(Evermann), 'Postleettall' (Buck/slomox) and 'Tempoövertreden'
(Fehrs-Gilde).
LS 'Bott' = 'space' gets transformed to 'Drachenschnur' (Sass);
'eenzigst' replaces 'enkelt' = 'single' (Werner aus Stade);
'bören' = 'to carry/to bear' suddenly has the same meaning as
'lüchten/liften' = 'to lift' (W. Wisser), and more and more and more...

Grammatical rules, as I yesterday had to read on Wiki.platt, become kind of
oracles: '_dal_fallen' = 'to fall down', '_dal_rieten' = 'to tear down', but
'dallohrig' = 'down-eared' = 'meek" (not Sass himself, but any transcriber).

I'm not yet prepared for that- my language is different. Maybe our children,
learning a lively-lovely language of one piece, one day will 'resign'.

A really odd way to save a minority language! Bin ich hier im falschen
Film??

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.05 (05) [E]

Hi all,

I would frown upon any suggestion of a 50-50 division or bilingual 
education.

In the spirit of going all the way, I propose that all minority
language communities follow the example of Cymru (Wales): education
completely in the minority language. It's a bit more complex than that
actually, but the basic principle has done wonders for the Welsh
language in recent years, and they are much more dramatic than those
of any crappy bilingual education program anywhere which insists on
using the LWC as well.

And obviously none of these kids have any troubles developing English
skills, for if they did, we'd be hearing about it a lot more.

Hie all,

I woud frown upon any sugjestion of a 50-50 division or bileingual 
edewcateion.

In the spearit of going all the way, I propose that all minority
langeuaj comewnitys foloe the exampl of Wales: edewcateion completely
in the minority langeuaj. It's a bit more complex than that actewaly,
but the baseic prinsipel has done wonders for the Welsh langeuaj in
resent years, and they are much more dramatic than those of any crapy
bileingual edewcateion program any where which insists on using the
LWC as well.

And obviously none of these kids have any trobels developing English
skils, for if they did, we'd be hearing abowt it a lot more.

Cheers
Mark

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language survival

Jonny,

You ought to be aware that there is more to the language than what you and I 
know.  Much external material may not even be needed if all dialects are 
looked at, and Dutch as well as the Saxon dialects of the Netherlands offer 
more material.  This is the kind of thing all languages have gone through in 
the process of being brought from out of the shadows.  This includes all 
those that have made it, including Icelandic and Norwegian after coming out 
from underneath Danish domination.  The alternative is resignation, neglect, 
limitation and abandonment.

Besides, I see nothing wrong with making up new words.  This happens in all 
languages, including German, all the time.  What's the alternative? 
Dry-freeze the lexicon, soak the language in formaldehyde and display it 
into a museum showcase never to be touched again?  What makes it different 
from other languages that it must be frozen in time and space?

> 'bören' = 'to carry/to bear' suddenly has the same meaning as
> 'lüchten/liften' = 'to lift' (W. Wisser)

Incorrect (your other examples notwithstanding).  Wilhelm Wisser uses 
_upbören_ ("böört ... up"), which is one way of saying 'to raise' (G 
_aufheben_), as opposed to _bören_ 'to bear', 'to carry'.  I've heard or 
read it elsewhere as well, and I have used it myself.  _Liften_ ~ _lüften_, 
too, means 'to raise', 'to lift', but I associate something a bit heavier 
with it.  _Hieven_, too, means 'to raise', 'to lift', but I associate 
something really heavy with it, also more of an upward pull rather than a 
lift from below.  I'm sure there's much dialectal variety in this and in 
other cases, and we must therefore not be too quick in labeling words and 
expressions as wrong.  Wisser collected the stories from real people in the 
late 19th century, much like the Grimm Brothers had done with primarily 
German stories.  Looking at his own writing, he does not strike me as having 
been in the habit of making up stuff.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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