LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.09 (02) [E]
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Fri Sep 9 15:50:08 UTC 2005
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L O W L A N D S - L * 09.SEP.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.08 (01) [A/E]
Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>It was highly unlikely in the 1970s that English-speaking children would
know any Welsh, or wish to learn it.<
You know this for a fact?
Or is this just anti-English prejudice?
Heather
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.08 (01) [A/E]
Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Parents could then choose which language they wanted their child(ren)
educated through.
<
But this was not allowed.
A Welsh friend whose language in the home was Welsh, asked for her daughter
to be put in the English section reasoning that as she had a good
background in Welsh at home, she would be best served by learning English
and so become bilingual.
She was told she couldn't and that all Welsh children were to be in the
Welsh section.
When she asked for her parental choice to be taken into consideration, she
was told she was a disgrace to the Welsh people.
As a result ....................???
She and the family moved to Liverpool!
It was the method that was wrong.... not the aim.
The best intentions badly delivered affect any observer's judgement of
those implementing it
... as in today's current Islamic crisis - where onlookers tend to think
that because all terrorists at the moment are Muslim, all Muslims must be
terrorists - which is of course arrant nonsense.
Heather
PS By the way just to undermine your accusing me and mine of anti-Welsh
feeling, I belonged at the time to The Freedom for Welsh Language Campaign
that called for bi-lingualism rather then replacing a monlingual culture
with another monolingual one.
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.08 (01) [A/E]
Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>It is just that I find it very difficult to be prejudiced in favour of
English.<
I'm not asking you to be prejudiced one way or the otherl - just open
minded.
I wish I had you in one of my sessions entitled " The disadvantages of
English as a mother tongue", where I point out that the same
characteristics of English that make it so simple for other people to learn
as a 2nd language, actually pose huge problems for the monoglot English
speaker learning any other language.
This probably isn't the forum to go into greater detail........... but can
I just add - English does have unique characteristics that mean a learner
makes rapid early progress - which is very encouraging. Unfortunately the
reverse is true for English speakers - it takes them ages to be able
cogntively to arrive at the same confident standard of fluency in, say, the
Eurpean languages currently taught in schools here.
And despite all the anti-empire, anti-English arguments, it is nothing to
do with attitude but with the lack of neural networks that can be adapted
to cope with a 2nd language. The latter have to be built from scratch -
which is very hard and takes a long time. Which makes moving from monoglot
English into any kind of bi-lingualism much much harder.
And we all know that if something is hard, we give ourselves excuses not do
it! ( Everyone out there speaks English - being the favourite)
Heather
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> (<lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>)
Subject: Language survival
Hi, Heather, folks!
Before I get to ask my question, just for the sake of those coming into this
cold, the above are replies not to me but to Críostóir Ó Ciardha.
Heather, by the sound of it, that policy falls into the category of
"educational apartheid." I wonder if this was the actual language (=
wording) of the policy or a free interpretation of it. While I don't doubt
the voracity of what you related, I am flabbergasted at the thought that
such a policy could have been written and enacted, even back thirty years or
so. But then again, perhaps I shouldn't be, considering whatever else was
going on in the world then.
As far as I know, before the fall of the Wall, Lusatia (Łužica/Lausitz) in
Germany, too, had a bilingual education policy, basically consisting of two
parallel streams: German concentration and Sorbian (Lusatian) concentration.
German concentration schools used German as the basic language and offered
(some) Sorbian, either as an elective or as a mandatory subject. Sorbian
concentration schools used Sorbian as the basic language (in theory), and
German was mandatory, but certain subjects were offered only in German. In
either case, the Sorbian content was lighter than the German one, though
those taking the Sorbian route were later considered qualified to be tested
for and pursue Sorbian teaching careers. I have been told that children
considered ethnically Sorbian were generally expected to take the Sorbian
route, but I don't know if in real life their parents were faulted for not
choosing that option. I do know that quite a few German-speaking parents,
including those of purely German descent, chose to route their children
through the Sorbian school system (as many still send their children through
the Danish school system in Schleswig-Holstein), probably the closest to
bilingual you could get there and then. Apparently, many believed this to
be ethically right and/or they assumed it would give their children an
advantange over others when they started studying Russian, another Slavonic
language, a mandatory subject throughout pre-reunification Eastern Germany
and an obstacle in many a student's academic history.
I am not sure about the current policies in the States of Brandenburg (Lower
Sorbian) and Saxony (Upper Sorbian). I do know about complaints about
Sorbian school closures and about the number of Sorbian speakers dwindling
(there being a shortage of younger Sorbian-speaking actors, for instance).
In reply to my letter condemning one such school closure, Saxony's minister
of education explained to me that the affected school simply did not have a
sufficient number of students, was thus not economically viable, that this
was merely a consolidation effort, there still being plenty of Sorbian
schools in the state. However, I keep wondering if such closures do not
actually have a detrimental affect on language maintenance anyway, in that
many parents, especially those less than "gung-ho," might choose not to have
their children commute long distances or even board in a different town
during the week.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
P.S.: By the way, folks, installments of the MDR Saxony Upper Sorbian TV
program Wuhladko (,
http://www.mdr.de/sorbisches-programm/wuhladko/2006783.html) of are streamed
and can be downloaded here: http://www.mdr.de/IS/film.gif. I find it
amazing how the pronunciation has changed, i.e., been Germanized, in my
lifetime alone. Interestingly, this heavy German "accent" seems to be
standard among the moderators now, while once in a while you still hear the
older pronunciation when people "in the street" are interviewed, even some
young people.
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