LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.09.11 (08) [A/E/LS]

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.09.10 (02) [D/E]

Beste Ron en Almal.

Onderwerp: Lexicon

So gelees oor (om dit in Afrikaans te stel) die verskil in literêre gebruik
of algemene gesprek tussen 'heel' en 'gans' laat my wonder of ek alleen is
in die waardering van 'n woordeskat wat beide vrylik en met vernuf kan
gebruik.Nog 'n ding; 'styl' is alles wel en goed, maar moet ons een form
uitsluitlik op skrif aanwend, en die ander in geselskap?

Aan die ander kant, ek geniet al te lekker die geskiedenis van taal en
taalgebruik, insluitende die intreding van woordskatte.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.09.11 (02) [D/E]

Hi Ron,
> As for _Menge_, maybe you can use _Antall_, _Tall_, _Summ_ and _Bedrag_ in
> some contexts.
..
> Dutch has the convenient word _g_ ("howmuchness") for it, which
> would be *_Woväälheit_ (*_Woveelheit_) as a calque.
Well, I know, but the "Menge" I am looking for is something very special in
mathematics. Some Links, just to make sure that you know what I am talking
about. (Are you familiar with the mathematical concept of a set and with set
theory?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menge_(Mathematik)

Some other languages:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensemble
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengde
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunto
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mängd

In the Dutch wikipedia they do not use hoveelheid, but
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verzameling
I have googled for hoveelheid and I have found phrases like
"Luchtvochtigheid is de hoeveelheid vocht in de lucht." where hoveelheid has
the meaning of amount.

In articles dealing with set theory it is always _verzameling_ like in
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftelbare_verzameling
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verzamelingenleer
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_paradox

> I suppose you might get away with _Schoof_ ....
I have also thought about "de Versammeln", but I do not really like it. 
Schoof
is the idea that I liked best. The problem is that I like it so much that I
do not manage to find any other ideas besides it. Does that mean that it is
so self-evident or does that mean that I am becoming blind?

Tell me more. What do you know about the word _Schoof_? (So that I can 
further
check this idea.)

And we also need a word for the elemets of a set. From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set:
"The objects of a set are called elements or members.". This leads me to to
1) Element like in "2 is en Element in de Schoof vun de Primtallen"
2) Maat/Liddmaat like in "2 is en Maat in de Schoof vun de Primtallen"
Or, as translation of the first sentences of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Element_(mathematics)

"In de Mathematik is en Maat/Liddmaat/Element 'n Objekt, dat Deel vun 'n
Schoof is.

In de mathematische (mathemaatsche?) Schriefwies heet "A = {1, 2, 3, 4}", 
dat
de Maten/Elementen vun de Schoof A de Tallen 1,2,3 un 4 sünd.
Gruppen/Koppels? ut de Elementen vun A (t.B. {1,3}) sünd Ünnerschööv vun de
Schööf A."

Do you like that? Does anyone object? Jonny? Any proposals? This might be 
your
last chance :)

Kind regards,

Heiko

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Heiko.  That helped.

> Tell me more. What do you know about the word _Schoof_? (So
> that I can further check this idea.)

It is the cognate of German _Schub_, so it's related to German _schieben_, 
Low Saxon _schuven_ and English _shove_.  There is no inherent sence of 
'set' (i.e., a specific group of elements that belong together), but 
_Schoof_ is often enough used in the sense of "group," albeit not 
necessarily complete sets, more like random groups.  For this reason alone 
I'm still a bit hesitant.  On the other hand, Dutch _verzameling_ does not 
seem to imply a definite set either, nor does German _Menge_ -- certainly 
nothing like English "set."  However -- and here he waffles again -- from an 
etymological point of view (from "shoving objects into group formation"), 
_Schoof_ may be the closest we can get with existing candidates.

> "In de Mathematik is en Maat/Liddmaat/Element 'n Objekt, dat Deel vun 'n
> Schoof is.

How about _Saak_ instead of _Objekt_, and _... dat 'n Part vun 'n Schoof 
is_?  (At any rate, with the additional _'n_ before the noun.  _Part_ -- an 
older loan -- conveys the idea of "part of a whole" more clearly to me ... 
well, but so does _Deel_, albeit more generalized.

> Gruppen/Koppels?

Ah!  _Koppel_!  Now we're talking!  Can't you use *that* one instead of 
_Schoof_?  It definitely conveyes the idea of "set" most clearly to me, 
implying (predetermined) links of objects into sets (from _koppeln_ 'to 
link').

Have I sufficiently confused you now?

> Jonny? Any proposals? This might be your
> last chance :)

Is that a demonstration of what's meant by the saying _Aanten vun'n Diek 
flöten_ ("to whistle ducks from the pond" = 'to do something in vain', 'to 
waste one's time')?  Laat maal usen Jonny tofreden, eische Jung, mit Dien 
kiebige Griensmüüsteree!  Up em un sien Blaaskapell laatt wi niks kamen. 
Remember: "Different strokes for different fowks," and that's a good thing. 
:-)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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