LL-L "History" 2005.09.23 (06) [E]

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Fri Sep 23 19:33:40 UTC 2005 

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.09.23 (02) [E]


Elsie wrote:
"I think one has to avoid blanket generalizations. Let's say: Most 
half-informed
people outside the US call 'Americans Yankees'. The uninformed do not even
know what a Yankee is, and the ignorant has never heard of the Mason-Dixie
line!"

I know of a number of people who deliberately use "Yankee" to offend 
southern Americans. Most Americans are referred to as "Yanks" but if they 
hear a southern accent, it's "Yankee". Informedness can be used for good or 
ill...

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.09.23 (03) [E]


Ron wrote:
"As far as I know -- unless things have changed in recent years -- "Yank" is 
the usual casual Australian (not necessarily full-blown "Ocker") name for 
"American." It is not necessarily disparaging. Most Australians would 
consider "Yankee" a separate, specific name, closer to the original American 
usage."

Not just Australians. I certainly use 'Yank' more than I use 'American', and 
don't consider it disparaging (I was offended when some Americans I once met 
took offence). If Australians want to be disparaging (the older ones 
particularly) they use 'Seppo' which is rhyming slang for 'Yank' via 'septic 
tank'. Seppo is quite rare these days, though.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.09.21 (08) [E]

> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.09.21 (02) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
> ... and also with regard to
> religious affiliation (the north being predominantly Lutheran and the
> south
> being predominantly Roman Catholic, a difference that has been playing a
> pretty important role.

Servus Ron!

The amazing thing about it is, that Luther saw himself certainly as a
High-German, Central-Southern-German. When you look at his curriculum, he
probably never was in Northern Germany.

He conceived his translation of the bible for Central- and Southern-Germany
and I read once, that he actually wanted a LG/LS translation for the North.

But history brought it, that the South remained catholic using the Latin
bible till the 20th century and the North to use his HG translation.

I think he would be pretty astonished to know that and he probably wouldn't
believe, that he helped to replace LS by HG in the North and is seen as the
father of modern German today, the one, to initialise a linguistic unitiy in
Germany.

Regards,
Karl-Heinz

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Moin, Karl-Heinz!

> He conceived his translation of the bible for Central- and 
> Southern-Germany
> and I read once, that he actually wanted a LG/LS translation for the 
> North.

He did.  He suggested something to the effect of "take the Gospel to the 
Saxons in their language."

This is what I wrote not too long ago (LL-L "Language use" 2005.08.16 (05) 
[E]):

<quote>

Though I don't only have complimentary things to say about him, I have to 
add that Martin Luther himself does not seem to have intended German to take 
over in the Churches of Saxony (as the north was then still known). This is 
why he urged his Pomeranian Saxon friend Johann Bugenhagen (a.k.a. Doctorus 
Pomeranus, 1485-1558) to come up with a Saxon version of the Bible. (He 
seemed to be convinced that it was a separate language and needed its own 
Bible.) This was done, under Bugenhagen's leadership, and this version was 
used in many parts of Northern Germany for about one century. I am not sure 
if this is what Luther had intended, but instead of translating directly 
from the ancient versions as Luther himself had done into German, the 
Bugenhagen team translated Luther's German version into Middle Saxon, 
printed and distributed by Dutch publishers that relocated to Hamburg. And 
you can tell. This version has been criticized for its stilted, less than 
natural and more than usual German style and language. This may well be the 
reason why it did not last and its disappearance from the scene has not been 
mourned.

>From my historical reading, I did not come away with the impression that the 
Reformation directly undermined the status of Low Saxon in the Prostestant 
churches of the north, though it may have inadvertently played a supporting 
role in it. In fact, once the Reformation was established, liturgy, sermon 
and instruction came to be conducted in Low Saxon, and the Bugenhagen Bible 
came to be used as standard in Hamburg and in many other cities and 
districts. This was after non-Latin religious texts had been prohibited and 
Protestant activities were outlawed in Hamburg. It was rural Lutheran 
preachers that infiltrated Hamburg below the radar and preached informally 
in Low Saxon. Especially Steffen Kempe was very popular with the masses, in 
part because he used their language well and exposed them to the Bible in 
it. Few of them could read it, but everyone was impressed and inspired by 
the audacity and was touched by the outreach gesture. I don't think that a 
German Bible would have done the same at the time.

The way I see it, German encroached northward after and probably as a 
consequence of the demise of the Hanseatic Trading League and the consequent 
dwindling of Saxon economic power. While German eventually took over church 
life as well (and also other languages fell victim to it, such as Sorbian), 
it seems to me that the Lutheran church's role in this was not pivotal, not 
as crucial as the roles of administration and institutes of higher learning 
and eventually schools in general. Whoever could afford higher learning came 
to learn German and tended to show it off, thus giving it prestige, 
something to emulate, to aspire to, eventually a symbol of sophistication 
and power. Whoever could not afford formal education was stuck with Low 
Saxon, and this kept lowering the prestige of the language. Primary and 
secondary schools punished students for using Low Saxon as late as in the 
1970s!

However, the actual transitional period was later, in earnest in the 18th 
century, when everyone who wanted to be someone switched over to German and, 
as much as possible, to French. You can tell especially from private 
correspondence of the time how the average well-to-do person struggled with 
written German as a foreign language, displaying a lot of Low Saxon 
interference. Many seem to have written in German to people (such as 
relatives) to whom they spoke in Low Saxon, at least at times when they did 
not need to impress people. So, it seems to have been *written* German that 
spearheaded Germanization, eventually leading to a virtual ban of written 
and printed Low Saxon. It was only the language activists of the 19th 
century that tried to halt the decline and that dared to write the language 
again. In the "dark era" of the 20th century it was thanks to grassroots 
efforts on the part of Lutheran pastors and educators that helped to carry 
the language through.

Interesting articles:
http://www.platt-online.de/verdraengung-mnd.html
http://www.hamburgs-geschichte.de/1529evangelisch.html

</quote>

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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