LL-L "History" 2006.04.15 (03) [E/French]

Sun Apr 16 00:44:17 UTC 2006

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 15 April 2006 * Volume 03
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2006.04.14 (03) [E]

  From: Sandy Fleming
  Surely the Braveheart was the Bruce? You know, they buried his heart and
  that was the Braveheart?

  What rubbish have you been watching? :)

  Sandy Fleming
  http://scotstext.org/

That rubbish you're thinking of.  But only 20 minutes or so, that was all I 
could take!

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.04.12 (04) [E]

Hi Reinhard,

I'll reply to a message that you wrote last week:

>Marcel, I've heard of claims that  Σχερία (Scheria, Skhería, >a.k.a.
>Phaeacia) of the Odyssey is assumed to be Atlantis or >Corfu, never
>Heligoland.

Yes, that's right. I couldn't quite remember where I got it from, but this 
evening I remembered and I found the sentences. I read it in the book 'Vue 
de Droite' (1977) by the philosopher and cultural critic Alain de Benoist. 
On page 47 he writes:

"Sur l'arrière-fond historique de l'Odyssée, les théories les plus 
audacieuses continuent d'aller bon train. Début 1977, le professeur Karl 
Bartholomäus, de l'université d'Essen, a proposé un nouveau itinéraire des 
périgrinations d'Ulysse. Charybde et Scylla correspondraient au détroit de 
Gibraltar; l'île de Thrinakia à Ténériffe, et Ogygie, séjour de Calypso, à 
l'une des îles des Açores. Quant à l'île des Phéaciens, elle s'identifierait 
avec Héligoland (ce qui rejoint l'une des hypothèses se Jürgen Spanuth)."

I haven't read these sources, so I can't tell whether it makes sense or not, 
but in the past many other exciting Western European theories have been made 
up to usurp this Greek epic. Some people even believed that Ulysses got all 
the way up to Trier, and he may even have founded it.

You mention the possibility of Celtic presence on Heligoland before the 
arrival of Germanic tribes. I don't know; I'll look it up for you in a 
minute. But a nice bit of information is the fact that some scholars 
believed Calypso's island to be Iceland. Poor Ulysses; the gods must have 
been too strict on him. Anyway,  research has shown that present-day 
Icelanders have a large portion of Celtic blood. Wikipedia says:

"The original population of Iceland was of Nordic and Celtic origin. This is 
evident by literal evidence from the settlement period as well as from later 
scientific studies such as blood type and genetic analysis. One such 
genetics study has indicated that the majority of the male settlers were of 
Nordic origin while the majority of the women were of Celtic origin (Am. J. 
Hum. Genet, 2001). The modern population of Iceland is often described as a 
"homogeneous mixture of descendants of Norse and Celts" (The CIA World 
Factbook) but several history scholars reject the alleged homogeneity as a 
myth that fails to take into account the fact that Iceland was never 
isolated from the rest of Europe and actually has had a lot of contact with 
traders and fishermen from many nations through the ages."

I would think that the Celtic settlers were beaten by the Nordic settlers, 
that alle the men were killed and that their women were made their wives. In 
Japan something similar must have occurred, and that lead to the development 
of 'women's speech' in Japan, which is thought to be of a radically 
different origin.

>BTW, Φαίακες (Phaeacians) is derived from the word φαιός
>(phaiόs) 'dark-skinned'.  Doesn't sound like Heligoland to >me.

Very interesting! I wonder if that meant something with regard to their 
origin. Many peoples were not Indo-European (provided that Indo-European 
language & culture had ethnic implications).

  Besides,
>most of today's cut-off rock walls of Heligoland are due to >post-war 
>British
>bombing, because the UK wanted to destroy the island to >prevent that the
>island ever again serve as a German naval outpost.

Terrible. That reminds me of 2005, when soldiers in Iraq collected the 
rubble of ancient Mesopotamian palaces with which they filled their 
sandbags.
Anyway, I wonder what Heligoland looked like, if we read the description of 
Scheria by Homer in Book VI of the Odyssey. There is a hint about where the 
city is, and how it is connected to the sea. Nausicaa says:

"I will introduce you at the house of my excellent father, where I can tell 
you that you will meet all the best people among the Phaecians. But be sure 
and do as I bid you, for you seem to be a sensible person. As long as we are 
going past the fields- and farm lands, follow briskly behind the waggon 
along with the maids and I will lead the way myself. Presently, however, we 
shall come to the town, where you will find a high wall running all round 
it, and a good harbour on either side with a narrow entrance into the city, 
and the
ships will be drawn up by the road side, for every one has a place where his 
own ship can lie. You will see the market place with a temple of Neptune in 
the middle of it, and paved with large stones bedded in the earth. Here 
people deal in ship's gear of all kinds, such as cables and sails, and here, 
too, are the places where oars are made, for the Phaeacians are not a nation 
of archers; they know nothing about bows and arrows, but are a sea-faring 
folk, and pride themselves on their masts, oars, and ships, with which they 
travel far
over the sea."

Does this show any resemblance with Heligoland? Are or were there ruins near 
the sea? In another book we read that people made a ship in the city, from 
where they could easily slip the ship into the sea.

>Of course, we have no idea what sort of people lived along >the North Sea
>coast before the arrival of Germanic tribes.  Did Celts live >that far 
>north?

The must have. But I guess that they would have operated from the British 
Isles and Gaul. Heligoland was too close to the area that had already been 
inhabited by non-Indo-European tribes (referred to as Nordwestblock 
Culture), and later by Germanic tribes (Jastorf and Harpstedt Cultures). The 
Celts certainly made it all the way up to Iceland. Some people think that 
the Icelandic Celts were monks from Ireland, but where did all those women 
come from that I mentioned earlier?

In any case, this must alle have taken place at a later stage of European 
history that the fall of Troy and its aftermath.

Best regards,

Marcel.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hey, Marcel!

I'd be surprised if any of the Odyssey took place beyond the Mediterranean 
and Black Sea.  Indeed, there's that European tradition of wanting to link 
everything near and dear with the perceived greatness of the Greco-Roman 
civilizations, very much as part and parcel of the "Europe is a continent" 
mythology that wants to exclude anything "oriental," including the enormous 
influences and importations from Asia and Africa.  You have to do a fair bit 
of digging to find references to Arabic and Turkic influences on European 
arts and sciences, and we are still being told that Marco Polo discovered 
China after centuries of people trading and traveling across Eurasia.  Leave 
alone references to Arabic travelers recording their observations among all 
sorts of early Europeans, and their records often being the only ones, such 
as those of the Slavonic peoples along the Baltic Sea coast (where also 
Arabic coins have been unearthed).

> I would think that the Celtic settlers were beaten by the Nordic settlers, 
> that
> alle the men were killed and that their women were made their wives. In
> Japan something similar must have occurred, and that lead to the
> development of 'women's speech' in Japan, which is thought to be of a
> radically different origin.

I often wonder if there was a bit of that involving Frisian women and Saxon, 
Jutish and Anglish men in the Germanic conquest of Britain -- which would 
explain the closeness between Frisian and English/Scots.

>   Besides,
> >most of today's cut-off rock walls of Heligoland are due to >post-war 
> >British
> >bombing, because the UK wanted to destroy the island to >prevent that the
> >island ever again serve as a German naval outpost.
>
> Terrible.

The larger part is gone now.  The remainder was saved thanks to the 
"occupation" of a German student and a British student, if I remember 
correctly.  The population had been relocated to the mainland, and not all 
of them returned after the onslaught, which was a serious blow to the 
Heligoland North Frisian (_Hallunner_) language (which is fairly strongly 
Saxonized).

> Does this show any resemblance with Heligoland? Are or were there ruins 
> near the sea?

'Fraid not, though it could be practically every other island.  However came 
up with the connection may have had a sip too many of Jägermeister  ;-) 
Heligoland (called simply _Luun_ "land" in the local Frisian) is rather 
small, even originally, with scarce soil for growing things.  People live on 
two levels: the lower level near the shore, and the upper level on top of 
the sheer red cliffs.  Traditionally, people lived mostly from fishing, 
especially from lobster catching.  Large vessels cannot moor very near the 
island.  Passengers have to disembark and reach the island by small boat.

Images:
http://www.gastgeberverzeichnis-schleswig-holstein.de/service/bilder-karten/helgoland.gif
http://www.birdinggermany.de/_derived/helgoland.htm_txt_helgoland.gif
http://www.ems-jade-online.de/Helgoland/Helgoland_Luftaufnahme.jpg
http://www.wochenpostusa.com/Assets/helgoland.jpg
http://www.ilexikon.com/images/1/11/Helgoland_-_Vogelperspektive_(1890-1900).jpg
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Gruss_aus_Helgoland_2.jpg
http://www.altonaer-museum.de/~upload/de/Dokumente/Helgoland%20-%20klein%20neu.jpg

> Some people think that the Icelandic Celts were monks from Ireland, but 
> where
> did all those women come from that I mentioned earlier?

NNNs (Norwegian novice nuns)?  ;-)

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron 

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