LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.24 (01) [E/F/Alemannic/German]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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   L O W L A N D S - L * 24 April 2006 * Volume 01
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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2006.04.22 (02) [E]

> From: I ROERDINKHOLDER <roerd096 at planet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2006.04.21 (02 [E]
>
> [snip]

> West-Friesland, the area North of Amsterdam, used to be Frisian
> speaking
> until a few centuries ago, and there are still quite a few traces
> of that
> old languages in its moribunt dialects...
>
> But, we shouldn't forget about East Frisian and North Frisian of
> course,
> though spoken outside of the Netherlands, and by a lot less people
> than
> W-Frisian.

Tige moaie talen, dy't wy yndie net ferjitte meie!

> Btw I think that the old dialect of the Wadden Sea island of
> Schiermonnikoog (Oddysian "Scheria" ?) could be marked as East
> Frisian in
> stead of West Frisian, but usually isn't

On which do you base this? Wêr basearrest dit op?
I have 2 dictionaries of this beautiful dialect and the old Spenter
study, and none of them is of this opinion (although Spenter marks 1 or 2
minor features as possibly transiotional to East Frisian, in the historical 
sense..).

Groetnis,

Henno

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Henno!

Not necessarily talking about the variety of Skiermûntseach/Schiermonnikoog 
right now but about the whole of original Friesland (and we ought to 
remember that today's Frisian-speaking areas are mere fragments of an old 
continuum), what is your position on positing a "Central Frisian" between 
"Western" (Westerlauwers) and Eastern Frisian?

I am not quite sure exactly where the boundaries of "Central Frisian" 
(perhaps a sort of transitional group) would be, but, roughly speaking, I 
would assume it to be Emsland, its eastern boundary drawn from about Norden 
in the north to just west of Leer in the south, in the west possibly 
originally including parts of now Saxon-speaking Eastern Groningen (e.g., 
Winschoten, Appingedam, Delfzijl, Uithuizen).  Some of the tideflats islands 
could be parts of this but probably represented a subset, namely Juist and 
Borkum, perhaps Texel (and Norderney, Baltrum, Langeoog, Spiekeroog and 
Wangerooge belonging to the East Frisian range).

I am asking this in part because I have heard about transitional 
characteristics and also about historical and cultural peculiarities (aside 
from the fact that much of the area went back and forth between Germany and 
the Netherlands.  (Isn't it true that for some time the area considered 
itself _the_ Friesland and wanted to be seen as separate from Eastern 
Friesland?)  I realize that this area's history is very complex with little 
reference to Frisian in official portrayals.

Are there any sizeable Frisian language samples of these areas?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.23 (03) [D/E/Alemannic]

> Des Schweizateitschn is mà wíakle zua schwår, åwa 's
> is niea
> zua spåt no wås z leanan.

Wie sogt ma auf Keantnarisch: Lei laafn loossn! I konn di nua eamuuntan zum
Schyzerdütsch, und jetz uf Alemanisch: 's git gnua Hollander i dr Schwiez
und z'Westoeschtrich bzw. Vorarlberg und Tirol, dia ganz koerig 's
Alemanisch schwaetzend.
>
> I kånn scho seechn dååsstu de 'kärntner Dehnung'  guat khennst! 's
> Gfreit mi
> dåss 's hier a Hochlanda wia di gip!

Ja typisch ist: wooosa, beeesa, greeessa und so was wie: doss, donn, ... und

Wörter wie: bissale (eigenlich ein alemanischer Diminutiv), krawutisch, ...

> A wo hååst Schwyzertüütsch glearnt? Du hååst a des ållemånnischen
> in
> West-Eesterreich "erwähnt" (wåås haasst des af Eesterreichisch?). Du
> maanst
> sihali de Wålsa! Schaug mål hier:
> http://www.vorarlberger-walservereinigung.at/

Wennsch luagasch uf dera Walser-Sita: Galtuer isch der Ort wo min
Familiennamma urspruenglich herkunnt. Bin sozsaege an Walser, obwohl uesri
Familie dia Tradition net läbt.

> Wån i zan erschtn mål von diesn Leit gheat håb, wår i gånz
> fåsziniat, und
> hiazan håb i dahaam "Walser Volkstum" von in Paul Zinsli (2003) in
> Puachschrånkh. Des is a monumentåls Puach. De Wålsa seint fååst so
> interessant wia de Roma und Sinti!!!
> Hätte ich das alte, ausserordentliche Volk nur früher kennengelernt...
> Eesterreich is lei fåsziniand.

Im Zinsli steht glaub' ich, dass die Familie Lorenz ursprünglich aus
Rheinfelden im Wallis stammt.
>
> Schliassli, schaug mål hier, wo må des greesstn karntna Weatapuach
> zåmmstöllt: www.villacher.net/
> I pin adapei!
>
Jo des Villoocha Weatabuch hob i a scho fia mi entdeckt.

> Pfiati, und guatn NÃ¥cht.
>
> Marcel.
>
Wia g'sogt: lei laafn loosn und lei lei Marcel

Karl-Heinz

> Okee, Buam,
>
> And now let's return to the Lowlands (at least of the List) or allow this
> thread to take a relevant turn.
>
> Servus!
> Reinhard/Ron

Mia hean eh scho auf, owa wos des gaunze mit Lowlands z'tuan hot, do foit ma
scho wos ein, owa i hob jetzt ka Zeit mea. Oiso bis daun und pfiatgot

Karl-Heinz 

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