LL-L "Literature" 2006.04.27 (04) [A/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 27 April 2006 * Volume 03
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From: "Elsie Zinsser" <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2006.04.26 (08) [A/E]

Haai almal,

Ron, ek sal die vertaling van "Knapie sien 'n rosie staan" vir jou in my FAK
sangbundel
soek en hier pos. Jou weergawe is horingoud en waarslynlik uit die 1930's!

Jou vermoedens oor die heide is ook verkeerd; ons is baie bekend met die
spesie (Heide/Erica)
en sowat 500 inheemse spesies groei net in die Wes-Kaap!

Boshoff/Nienaber noem dat die benaming uit Nederlands of Duits in Afrikaans
gekom het.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser
I have a hunch that _heide_ ("heath(land)") is something of a Dutch loan
in Afrikaans, frozen in time as a European feature most South Africans
have never encountered themselves.

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From: "Stellingwerfs Eigen" <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature"

Ron wrote:  And my shot at a rough Dutch version:

> Zag een knaapje een roosje staan,
> Roosje op het heide,
> Morgenschoon, net opgegaan,
> Liep hij stevig daarop aan,
> En hij was zeer BLIJDE. [~ blij]
> Roosje, roosje, roosje rood,
> Roosje op het heide.
> En ik zal het niet LIJDEN."

Het Roosje
't Knaapje zag een roosje staan,
't Roosjen op de heide,
't Had zoo'n keurig kleedjen aan
Snel is hij er heengegaan,
't Was of het hem beidde.
Roosje, roosje, roosje rood,
Roosjen op de heide!

't Knaapje zei:"Ik pluk u af.
Roosjen op de heide!"
't Roosje zei:"Ik weer u af
En ik prik u voor uw straf;
Wilt gij, dat ik lijde?"
Roosje, roosje, roosje rood,
Roosjen op de heide!

En het knaapje brak
't Roosjen op de heide!
't Roosje weerde zich en stak;
Maar de knaap rukt van den tak
't Roosjen op de heide.
Roosje, roosje, roosje rood,
Roosjen op de heide!

Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

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From: "Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong" <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Literature"

Re Roosjen rood:

Ron  the Dutch text of the song ( which was not necessarily the text that was
translated into Afrikaans. There were plenty of German speaking people
there too )
is as follows:

"t Knaapje zag een roosje staan.
   Roosje op de heide
't had zo'n keurig kleedjen aan
   Snel is hij er heengegaan,
    't Was of het hem beidde.

't Knaapje zei: "Ik pluk u af.
   Roosje op de heide!
't Roosje zei: "Ik weer u af
 en ik prik u voor us strat;
Wilt gij, datik lijde?

The "beidde" past tense of beiden means "to wait for".
In Dutch the sentence that you thought had a double negative in Afrikaans
is a
simple question. I bet you that the Afrikaans version is a translation of
the German
( Freuden translates into Blijde ) And of course, the Dutch version is also a
translation from the German.

Crazy, but I had to look up the Dutch text. Always sang it in German, which I
learned from my Grandmother. Jacqueline

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Baie dankie vir die interessante antwoorde, almal!

Liewe Elsie, ek sou baie bly en dankbaar wees indien jy die Afrikaanse
vertaling van die liedjie vir ons kan vind en hier pos. Soos ek al geskryf
het, het ik dit geruime tyd gelede (ca. 35 jare) geleer, en my serebrale
databank is nie wat dit eens was.

> Jou vermoedens oor die heide is ook verkeerd; ons is baie bekend
> met die spesie (Heide/Erica)
> en sowat 500 inheemse spesies groei net in die Wes-Kaap!

Interessant! Maar ondanks hierdie feit lyk my die fonemiese struktuur van
die woord "heide" baie argaies.  Daarom het ek geskryf ek vermoed dit word
word iewers lank gelede "gevries".  Die naamwoord word moontlik soos 'n
naam gekategoriseer en word daardeur soos 'n uitsondering behandel.
Verstaan jy wat ek bedoel?

Hi, Jacqueline!  Sorry if I didn't express my thoughts clearly.  I was not
suggesting that the Afrikaans version is a translation from Dutch.  In
fact, I assumed it was a translation from the German original.  (And, by
the way, I like the Afrikaans version better than the Dutch one.)  What I
did try to suggest is that in earlier times (and I stress "earlier times")
some archaic, more Dutch-like words, expressions and devices were used in
"elevated" Afrikaans styles.  I assume that this is because of the
influences of written Dutch that played the role of a "high" language
then.  Again, I am not suggesting that this is still going on.  In fact, I
assume it's quite passé now and would be ridiculed if used these days.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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