LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.03 (10) [E/LS]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 03 August 2006 * Volume 10
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From: 'Stellingwerfs Eigen' <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency'

Jonny wrote:
> Beste Piet,
> Diin _wright_ is meyst 'perfesschonell'!!

Mit 'n heufdletterse Buchstabe zol 't ja krek een Insel wezen van argens
tussen Ni'jberkoop en Ni'jYork, gelle. Dou 'k sommetimes so miene best om es
aanswat as kroem te lullen...
Count mar even mit: bruuk mar hiel zeldzem Engels aans as computer Engels
(da's iene), bin meerstentieds veul zu snell (da's twieje) en dan maek ik ok
nog es ommeraek karrevrachten vol tikvouten (da's drieje). E-mail het nog
immer iene makke: et bruukt gien compiler die 't waark naokikt op syntax en
ere tikfehlers en in mien 'spellingscontrole' staon onderhaand al vusen te
vule talen nuumd. D'r is altied wel een tael bi'j een woord te vienen of een
woord bi'j een tael.
Mar ik geleuf dawwe mekeer veur al et aandere hiel goed verstaot, am I right
Jonny?
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

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From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.03 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language proficiency
>
> I think you are right, Karl-Heinz. It is mostly in touristy places that
> Bayuvarian-speaking locals are eager to speak their versions of Standard
> German
> to accommodate outsiders, mostly because these are "guests" in the sense
> of
> "customers."

And there’s another point: as in many touristy places, the staff is often not
from the place. In Austria at the moment there are many of them from eastern
Europe and from Germany, especially former East Germany. Often only the people
who own the hotel or restaurant and the head waiters are natives. So you can
certainly hear a perfect German in the Alps and as you are not from a German
speaking country you will hardly recognise that they are no natives. It gets even
more complicated, as many of these guestworkers gradually adopt the natives’
dialect, finally speaking alternately Standard German and their version of the
local dialect.

It’s the same in other countries. I was in South-Tyrol (is it really another
country?) some weeks ago. You would expect all of them speaking German and
German-Tyrolean respectively, but only the couple who ran the hotel spoke
Tyrolean, the rest of the staff I got in contact with spoke Italian and their
German was just good enough to serve the customers but no chance to have a
conversation in German with them. Maybe they improve their German as they come in
contact with the local people.

But as I speak a bit Italian and they a bit German a conversation worked pretty
good unless it is about politics, science … (I don’t anyway).

> I, too, admire Bayuvarian speakers for otherwise consistent
> use of
> their dialects. Many tend to see it as "backwards" and as an expression
> of
> conservative attitudes (as a bad thing) and anti-"Prussian" sentiments, as
> a sort
> of "obstinate" attitude. Whatever the reasons, they are fond and proud of
> their
> language and their cultures, and there's something to be said about that.

Sometimes I think they overdo it. It has a lot to do with conformity. In your
Northern Germany it’s chic to speak a perfect standard German and no dialect, in
Bayuvarian regions the standard language is mostly only used in its written form.
Obviously it’s difficult to have both (standard and dialect) side by side.

> Besides, they are quite aware that even North Germans understand their
> dialects
> fairly well, unless they talk too fast and use lots of "weird" localisms.

They use sometimes a soft version, as Missingsch instead of LS in the North. And
btw the Bavarian wren version has some of this “Missingsch” in it. It sounds
pretty good Bavarian, but I think a word like “Wagenschuppen” is probably used in
Bavaria but not typical Bavarian. Etymologically the Bavarian equivalent to
“Schuppen” is “Schupf(en)”, “Stadl” maybe also used, or simply “Garage” as synonym.

There is also past tense “…woar’s der Löw, der wo dort lang ging..” Probably used
in today’s Bavarian, but the real thing would be “.. woa’s da Löw, dea wo do lang
ga(u)nga is.” And as I did now, “r” is regularly vocalised (as is also “l”). But
maybe not so consequently today and purism is not my thing.

> Even if Northerners speak *real* (i.e., Missingsch-based) Northern German
> they
> are fairly well understood in Bavaria and Austria, though there may be the
> off
> strange word or expression.

Definitely, for Southerners the expression “Missingsch” is quite unknown, but if
they hear it, they would understand it and classify it as the Northern German
they know from tourists and German TV. A strange word would be e.g. “de Lüdden”,
I think most would translate it as “Leute”. Although for example in Tyrol “die
Letzen” (German: "Lützen") is used for “children” (and “small people”, synonymous
“der Kchloa[ne]”/German: “Kleine”).

> It's a different matter if they speak Low
> Saxon.
> People might understand no more than a few words. This may well increase
> now
> that English proficiency has increased and many Low Saxon words are
> recognized
> via that language (e.g., _Water_, _Schipp_, _Katt_, _Heven_, _eet!_,
> _Pott_,
> _Buddel_ and _Düvel_),

LS is something we don’t hear much in these days, neither in Northern German let
alone in the South, but everbody who speaks a bit English has a good idea what LS
approximately is. Another bridge to it are the Central German dialects as
Ripuarian/Kölsch and the Berlin-dialect/Missingsch. They can be heard quite often
in the media and for us they are pretty Northern and Low-German.

As with LS the same goes with Dutch: a good knowledge of English makes it pretty
easy to learn it, because al lot of the so called false friends are the same.
>From this view it’s easier for (High-)German speakers to learn Dutch than vice
versa. But in fact nearly all the Dutch speak German with a more or less good
proficiency (as Gabriele’s Spiegel article shows), simply because they are much
more exposed to German language as German native speakers to Dutch. And btw Dutch
is “sträflich” neglected in Germany and the other German speaking countries.

> but that would still leave lots of unrecognized
> words and
> expressions, such as _faken_ 'often', _Teems_ 'sieve', _Gatt_ 'hole',
> 'backside',
> _daal_ 'down(ward)', _baven_ 'above', _buten_ 'outside', _günt_
> 'yonder', _dwars_
> 'across', 'sideways', _gries_ 'gray', _plinkögen_ 'to wink',
> _nickköppen_ 'to
> nod', _smüüstern_ 'to smile', 'to smirk', _tünen_ 'to fib', 'to
> tell tall tales',
> _Koppwehdaag'_ 'headache', _Sleef_ 'wooden spoon', 'ladle', _Ruut_ 'window
> pane',
> and _Tweeschen_ 'twin(s)'. This would include numerous cognates of German
> words
> that are not recognizable for the average person, such as _Tuun_ 'fence',
> 'garden' (G _Zaun_), _witt_ 'white' (G _weiß_), _swatt_ 'black' (G
> _schwarz_),
> _dwangswies'_ 'coersively' (G _zwangsweise_), _ruut_ 'out' (G _raus_,
> _hinaus_),
> _smarten_ 'to hurt', 'to be painful' (G _schmerzen_), _Kark_ 'church' (G
> _Kirche_), and , _taag'_ 'tough' (G _zäh_).

I recognise a lot of them as I am interested. I’ve sometimes watched these”Talk
op Platt”-shows on NDR. I could understand most of it, but it depends on the
speaker, for some of them I have the feeling they don’t speak a real “Platt” but
only a more or less reshifted High-German. But if there’s somebody who is more
“authentic” (don’t know a better word), it’s pretty hard, for example with jokes.
You regularly miss the punch line, if you’re knowledge of the language is not
good enough.

Regards,
Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language proficiency

Servus, Karl-Heinz!

> And btw the Bavarian wren version has some of this “Missingsch” in it.

I see. But you do realize, don't you, that it's LOWER Bavarian and thus closer to
Central German?

> Definitely, for Southerners the expression “Missingsch” is quite unknown, 
> but if they hear it, they would understand it and classify it as the 
> Northern German they know from tourists and German TV.

Unfortunately, in former times at least, there used to be a misconception among
Southerners, reinforced by what seems like misrepresentation of Northern
_Volkstheater_ plays on national TV, that Missingsch is "Low German."  (You see,
false expectations that it should be comprehensible begin with the use of
"German" in the name.)  Since various parts of Germany presented dialect folk
theater plays, the North had a problem: real Low Saxon (being a separate
language) would not be understood by most (certainly not outside Northern Germany
and not even among most younger North Germans).  However, lipservice at the time
was that it was a German dialect group (which some still try to maintain these
days, not only in Germany but also among some Plaudietsch speakers outside
Europe).  So what could represent the North in terms of folk theater that people
elsewhere could relate to?  Missingsch of course!  After all, it is a type of
German dialect with Low Saxon "influences" (i.e., substrates) and had been known
in the South to be "typically Northern" (and yet could be understood for the most
part).  Missingsch is rarely, if ever, used as the basic language of plays,
though certain roles will call for it.  However, Northern theater groups,
foremost among them the Ohnsorg-Theater of Hamburg, had to rewrite and perform
their Low Saxon plays in Missingsch specifically for the benefit of TV audiences
throughout German-speaking Europe.  And then there was an element of dishonesty
in that this fact was not acknowledged (or if it was it must have been buried in
small print credits flying by).  As a result, Missingsch was in effect
misrepresented as Low Saxon.  I don't know if this is still going on.  I do know
that during my visits there were plays in genuine Low Saxon on North German TV,
not on national TV, mind you, and I remember that my youngest sister (who never
learned the language, in part because she had refused to) understood only a tiny
bit (and her English is fluent).

As I told other Lowlanders before you joined us, Karl-Heinz, I have had a few
encounters with Bavarians and other "Bayuvarians" who asked me to give them
demonstrations of "Low German."  An Austrian colleague's reaction was "Like
Dutch," but I believe it's because she had seen it written and was influenced by
all those double vowel letters, plus her awareness that the two languages are
closely related.  The funniest experience I had was with a Baviarian family:
"What? Not like THAT! No, like at Ohnsorg!"  So they rejected the real thing in
favor of Missingsch!  They had expected to understand it, and I had given them
merely gobbledigook.  They weren't even amused, nor were they interested in my
explanation.  ;-)

Funny?  Sure!  But there's a serious side to it.  I believe that our
Scots-speaking friends can relate to it, because what is very often presented as
"Scots," "Lallans," etc. in the media is nothing more than somewhat "Scots-ized"
Scottish English, and these misrepresentations tend to create or encourage false
expectations among non-Scots.

In my circle of friends in Israel there was a young woman visiting for the
summer.  She was quite the character, had us in stitches almost continuously, and
this was heightened by her stronger-than-usual "Noo Yooak" accent (e.g.,
[ka~pU~O~f"kU~O~fi~] for "cup of coffee", like Fran Drescher on the US sitcom
"The Nanny").  Once she told us that she could speak Yiddish, which delighted me,
since I was curious about the New York Yiddish dialect.  Someone, surprised like
I to hear a young, non-traditional American say she knew Yiddish, asked her to
give us a demonstration.  She put on an a dialogue act complete with some kind of
weird accent and said *in Yiddishized English* things like "Git Shabbes, Mrs.
Fishel! How goes it, and what makes the mishpokhe?" ("Happy Sabbath, Mrs. Fishel!
How are you, and how is your family doing?").  People were loving, and I asked
her something in Yiddish to see if she could even understand (something in the
order of _Neyn. Mir veln visn tsu du redst prost mameloshn mit dayne eygene._
'No. We want to know if you speak plain "Mother tongue" with your folks.')  Her
eyes darted around for a few seconds, and then she said, "Yeah, yeah! Mameloshn!"
 It ("mother tongue," a common name for Yiddish) was the only word she seemed to
have recognized.  Later it turned out that she genuinely believed that this
Yinglish of hers was Yiddish ...  Funny?  Yes, but also a bit sad.  Don't you think?

As for your comprehension proficiency of Low Saxon, Karl-Heinz, well, I think we
are safe to assume you aren't "normal."  ;-)  And, yes, you are right.  These
days there are lots of Low Saxon varieties with strong German influences, and
trying to understand an "authentic" variety can be difficult if you aren't used
to it.  But knowing you, I'm sure you'd get the hang of it in no time if you were
given the opportunity.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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