LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.07 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 07 August 2006 * Volume 02
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From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.06 (02) [E]

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 06:15, Lowlands-L wrote:

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.05 (02) [E/German]
>
> >From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Language proficiency
> >

>
> At the very beginning there's a little boy running around shouting "Da!
> Da! Da!".

Scots? Or Welsh?
>
> This was the only Scots I noticed in the whole film.
>
> Some other gaffs: Historically, the Braveheart is Robert the Bruce, who

Tell me more! Among the skeletons in my father's family closet happen to be
an alleged descent from Robert the Bruce himself, via some attractive young
woman of the Bruce clan, based in the Jedburg area. King Alfred the Great
had his burned cakes for people to remember him by - Robert the Bruce had his
persistent spider to remind him of his duty as the Scottish King and leader
of Scotland's resistance.

Which makes me some sort of relative of that thieving Lord Elgin ... ;)

> is made out to be some sort of coward in the film; In Blin Harry's poem,
> the Wallace is described as being about eight foot tall and covered in
> scars, not five foot two with designer woad :)
>
> Sandy Fleming
> http://scotstext.org/
>

>
> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.02 (02) [E/LS/German]
>
> >From: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.08.01 (02) [E/German]
> >Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2006.08.01 (06) [E/LS]
> >
> >My late brother, who lived in Holland and Germany for about 30 years, used
> > to tell me that the English perception that "Europeans are so much better
> > at languages than us" is often misplaced. He reckoned it is relatively
> > easy to give the impression that you speak a language at a superficial
> > level, but it soon falls apart at the first signs of complexity.
> >Also, we tend to hear people on television with wide international
> > experience (e.g. Boris Becker or Michael Schumacher from Germany - I
> > can't think of any Dutch examples offhand) and we imagine that all
> > Germans (for example) are like that.
>
> Long ago when I used to chat on writers' channels on IRC there were the
> occasional people from non-English-spaeaking countries in the largely
> American channels I used to visit. I used to speak to an aspiring writer
> who was Dutch, and who kept having to look up his Dutch-English
> dictionary for the words I used. I asked him didn't all Dutch people
> speak English, and he said he was a carpenter and didn't have that sort
> of education.
>
> All the same this is not to miss the fact that a Dutch person who
> considered himself relatively uneducated could still carry on a typed
> conversation in English quite well.
>
> My problem with multilingualism isn't with language learning but with
> language maintenance. Most British people under a certain age will have
> done French or another major language at school and even have a
> qualification in it, but having left school wouldn't say they could
> speak French, except possibly in their CV. I think there's nothing
> that'll make you forget a language quicker than sitting an exam in it,
> especially if you think you've passed! If the exam was all your
> motivation for learning the language, then your brain seems to say, "OK,
> let's wipe that."
>
> Conversely, I think there's nothing that'll help you maintain a language
> better than if you keep having to use it. It may be that many people in
> non-English-speaking countries manage to maintain their English because
> they either keep needing to read or speak it, or feel they might need it
> at any time.
>
> Of all the languages I've ever attempted to learn, the only ones I've
> succeeded with are those I actually had to use: I don't seem to be able
> to learn languages that I'm merely curious about. But even the languages
> I become proficient in are soon forgotten through lack of use.

I've had some interesting experiences with language learning. I learned Old
English in 1987, purely as a challenge. I became quite confident with it,
though I never got to the stage of reading anything serious, such as Beowulf.
I undertook the study of Homeric Greek, Spanish, Portuguese and Te Reo Maori
in 1988-89 as a consequence of surviving a Traumatic Brain injury and being
told it could affect my language learning ability - so I gave myself a road
test. I can still read any of those languages, and understand a certain
amount, and find I can now follow easy Catalan and Italian, so I figure I
passed.

On the other hand, I worked through a Pali text book in 2000, and couldn't
read or quote anything from it to save my life.

If I'm motivated, then it sticks. If motivation is lacking, or tainted in
some manner, I won't retain it. (And for all intents and purposes I could be
quoting Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina" here. :-)

I'm sure if I encountered an immortal mermaid speaking PIE who was willing to
give up immortality to gain a soul and my love, I'd be speaking fluent PIE
within the month! ;)

Wesley Parish

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language proficiency

Wesley, Lowlanders,

I consider motivation to be by far the most important condition and am convinced
that its absence spells failure.

Furthermore, I believe there are two categories of motivation:

(1) immediate need perceived by the learner ("need to survive")
(2) interest/enthusiasm ("need to know")

Together they make for a recipe for success.

Apparently, the need to pass a course can be sufficient motivation for some, not
for others.  At any rate, without ingredient 2 and subsequent maintenance the
language will probably never even really make it to filing status, will only be
stored temporarily in short-term memory.

I believe there's another factor: attitude.  Again, I believe this consists of
two parts:

(1) confidence (belief in one's ability)
(2) image (attitude toward a language)

Many people believe (or talk themselves into believing) that they have no "talent
for languages."  This can be a powerful psychological stumbling block.  Unless a
person has serious native language problems, this belief has no foundation in truth.

You need to be interested in the language and have a positive attitude toward it,
its speakers and their culture.  There is also such a thing as "racist" thinking
in this area as well, a belief that you can't or shouldn't learn the languages of
"exotic" peoples, that somehow their brains are wired differently.  People with
this attitude will usually not even consider learning such languages.  They will
have real problems doing so when in theory they need to (e.g., in colonial
situations), will prefer an intermediary language, such as a pidgin.

Speakers of English have a particular problem in that English proficiency is
increasing very fast around the world, which makes it easy for them to be "lazy"
(i.e., assume a "why bother?" attitude).  As I see it, they need specific
strength in the areas of interest (such as intellectual interest) and/or
motivation to become parts or of at least accepted by the speaker community. 
Much depends on the native speakers' attitudes as well, mostly if they support
and/or expect the effort, realizing also that being "helpful" by speaking English
to the learner in non-emergency situations is actually unhelpful.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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