LL-L 'Traditions' 2006.12.12 (02) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L * 11 December 2006 * Volume 02
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From: t.mcrae at UQ.NET.AU
Subject: Traditions

On 10/12/2006, at 8:34 PM, David Clarke wrote:

> Halloween is a US (re-?)import into England and wasn't celebrated
> or noticed much when I was a child. Nor was New Year.
You are wrong on this point David. Halloween is based on the ancient
Celtic fire festival of Samwhain which marked the start of their new
year.
A time when spirits of the dead walked again among the living.
In earlier times Scottish children went Guysing at this time, usually
with blackened faces and wearing adult jackets back to front. Neep
lanterns,
turnips carved as skulls with a candles inside were carried.
There may be a link between guy Fawkes and Halloween as Nov 5th
Gregorian calendar is close to October 31st Julian.
We'd go from house to house entertaining people and receiving gifts
of nuts and seasonal fruits as reward.
Laterally money was given and a great fun night was changed to a
begging exercise.
In Edinburgh one could see Guysers on the streets from August onwards
blatantly begging at bus stops and outside stores.
Sandy Fleming's recent description of what it has become is very valid,
It is a Scottish tradition adopted in America and changed to Trick or
Treat.
>
> I am told that the best place for Guy Fawkes celebrations is the
> town of Lewes in East Sussex. Perhaps this is due to their strong
> protestant traditions following the burning of protestant martyrs
> in the town during the rain of Mary Tudor ("Bloody Mary").
The Lewes Guty Fawkes celebrations are unreal !
I've read accounts of men dressed as Jesuits trying to preach to a
crowd which responded by bombarding them with fireworks.
Apparently at one time the City Council tried banning the
celebrations so folks rolled barrrels of gunpowder downhill to the
Council Chambers.
The ban was lifted.

Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2006.12.09 (01) [E]

Lewes Bonfire Night - second only to Rye Bonfire night at the far end of
the same county!!
I was at school in Rye and Bonfire Night was one of the highlights of the
Year.

A long procession of floats would wend its way through the narrow streets
of the town down to The Salts ( the flats by the river Rother) the final
float being a full sized fishing boat with a bonfire in the stern (really)
pulled by a tractor (the boat was lined with metal) As it was dragged
through
the streets, fishermen threw tar onto the fire sending flames high into the
air . Health & Safety banned it - not surprisingly some years ago and then
after public outcry, the whole thing was reinstated - Burning Boat and all.

When it arrives on the Salts, bloaters are cooked in the fire and sold to
the crowds.

The George Hotel used to move its bar into the garage/parking area and that
was the best meeting place during the evening. The YFC (Young Farmers' Club)
would come armed with Rook Scarers ( aka rockets) and set them off along
the floor. One just jumped aside but knowing this in advance, women wore
thickest of stockings or trousers which always ended up peppered by burns.

I agree that Hallowe'en was small feed compared with Bonfire NIght. My
father
owned the night and was i/c fireworks. As his birthday fell on the 9th Nov
he always claimed he was just celebrating in advance!

However we did used to celebrate the 31st Oct with apple bobbing and fortune
telling and the odd carved swede head - pumpkins being rare in the 50s &
60s in Sussex.

But it was just a run up to the proper shindig on the 5th.

Heather

PS Scotland doesn't celebrate Guy Fawkes, does it? Or .....?
I read somewhere that bonfires were still being lit for Hallowe'en in Wales
& Scotland in the 19th century. Does it still hold good?

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From: Dutchmatters at COMCAST.NET
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2006.12.09 (01) [E]

Hi Jonny and Piet. This is an interesting argument that you are involved in:

Jonny says: <Very different here, in the marshlands. People here always had
to calculate the rules of the sea, e.g. the tides, the height of spring
tide, with and without <the wind coming from a certain direction etc. They
always knew: if you don't build the  dikes highly enough no ghost or God
would save you from being drowned! <Additional the open artificial landscape
doesn't give much chances for 'trolls' and other mysterious creatures to
hide themselves..
<For the same reasons people here never have been very religious; their
fight against all types of constrained christianity, always hand in hand
with nobility and authority endured till the 19th century and still results
in a distinctive free thinking.>

Piet on the other hand offers: <Hey Jonny, dat vaalt mi'j op ! Ik docht dat
et bi'j oons krek aandersomme is: in de hiele streek van Noord-Grunningen en
Noord-Frieslaand op de klei langs de hiele Waddenkust wonen neffens mi'j
juust een hiele protte geleuvige meensken, meerstal Griffemeerd
Protestaans.>

May  I put my 2 cents worth in? It is true that in the coastal areas of
"Noord Nederland" most people ended up as Calvinists, but Calvinisme is in
reality an import from the South. More than100 years before the time of the
Reformation proper there was a religious upheaval going in the area around
the cities of Deventer and Zwolle. The "Brethern of the Common Life" (De
Broederschap des Gemenen Levens), whose best known leader was Geert Grootte,
were very much anti the hierarchical power structure in the Catholic Church.
Their idea of the Modern Devotion wanted religion removed from the pomp and
circumstances of the Church and do away with the "worldly ways" and the
indulgences of the priesthood, which kept them away from ministering to
their flock. They   proposed that people should be responsible for
themselves and have a direct relationship with God, independent from the
priesthood. These ideas influenced the thinking of the later Humanists,
including Erasmus himself. It was this more democratic idea of religion that
appealed to a people that had learned that the only way to keep the water
behind the dykes is if everybody, independent of social status, man the
dykes in time of need.  That was also the reason why during the reformation
the Anabaptists were so successful, especially in the Eastern provinces. The
Calvinists were more fiercely anti Mennonite than the Catholics. The
Mennonites fled to Germany in droves leaving the Calvinists behind. Early
Protestantisme in the Netherlands was way more democratic than what we see
in the Calvinistic Churches of these days.

 I think that both of you are talking about the same people. Jacqueline

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2006.12.09 (01) [E]

Beste Dirk,

you wrote:

> So, what about the "rational habit" of putting a dead body, preferably a
> person, but a horse will also do, into the new dyke to appease the wights
> of
> sea and land?

As 'bodies' (no humans!) are concerned, it's quite correct in some aspects-
but no matter of superstition. It was just simpler to get rid of a dead
horse or cow this way than to dig a deep hole in the wet, sticky clay-land
where the groundwater is on a very high level.
I myself often found the bones of cattle and horses when I was digging
deeper ditches. People have buried animals this way till the 20th century at
different occasions/locations until it was forbidden and the government
established a system of knackeries.

That, as a custom, has been described by the famous German author Theodor
Storm in his novel 'Der Schimmelreiter'. His famous main character 'Hauke
Haien' already fought against such customs. There it even had to be a living
little dog which Hauke himself could save!
I've never heard that these things really had happened in our region but I
don't mean that people in our marshlands *were* absolutely free of
superstition- they just *are* obviously less superstitiously than people
that live further-off the coast. It's sometimes a short way from a useful
practice to an empty tradition as we have to learn just now in sight of all
these useless ethnically and religious conflicts.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de
Subject: LL-L 'Traditions' 2006.12.11 (05) [E/LS]

Beste Piet,

Du schreyvst:

> Ik docht dat et bi'j oons krek aandersomme is: in de hiele streek van
> Noord-Grunningen en Noord-Frieslaand op de klei langs de hiele Waddenkust
> wonen neffens mi'j juust een hiele protte geleuvige meensken,

Jo, dat is eyn Phenomen: de wiider Du no de West koomst in de Masch, de
meyhr hebbt de Lüüd dat mit de Kark. In Oost-Freysland (in Sünnerheyd inne
Krummhörn, bii de Reformeyrten) is dat 'n bitje verscheyden van uns or van
uns Nobern (noord-buern) in Dithmarschen.
Mii dücht, dat het wat mit jem ehr histoorschen Achtergrond tou kriigen.
Hier bii ons (un opp eyn minner slimm' Oort ouk in Dithmarschen) hebbt de
oul'n Arch-Bishops van Bremen (van A.D. 1199 bit 1645) 'mit Feuer und
Schwert' regeyert. Dat Land Hadeln hebbt sey ne kreegen, man ouk jümmer
weller mol öber-full'n.

No de Reformatschoon kreygen de Odeligen, de Luther vöör siin Karr'n spannt
haar, oorig meyhr Macht- ouk weller mit Hölp van de Kark! Dat hoyr reell
eyrst opp, as de Preussen 1866 keymen.

Un- de 'groude' Kardel (Charlemagne) hett in Gott siin' Nomen de Sassen
doud-sloagen, ne de Freysen. Mit dey kunn hey jo woll recht goud.
De Freysen weyrn tou schiint 's noch wat freydlicher as vandoog ;-)...

Nee, nee- sou eyn Soort van christliche Organisatschoon hebben 's  hier
amend ne bruuken köönt. Tegen dat Woter kunnen 's jem doch jo nich recht
helpen.
Van de Kark keym selten wat Goud's- dat hebbt de Lüüd öber de heyle Tiid ne
vergeeten.

Greutens inne Noberschopp!

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
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