LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.12 (01) [E]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 12 February 2006 * Volume 01
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.11 (01) [E]
Ron wrote:
>No mocking was intended, Ingmar and Gabriele, just friendly, light-hearted
>satyrical banter. Sorry if it came across otherwise to you. The perceived
>sharp edge may have been due to a temporary mood with satyrical or
>sarcastic, though rather playful over- and undertones. (I forgot to take
>off the fake horns.)
Well, first of all here is what I said (oops, what a naughty power outage):
Ron wrote:
>Kan wij neot lijk so ejn al-laoglandisk tong maak, ons ejgen privaat-tong
>("Fremders en akademikers uut!") mit grond-lejin tong-regels en ejnli
>grond-luuds (mit neon omluuds)? En wen wij hev it redi en togader, den sit
>it fast in stejn, den kan ejnli *wij* it spraek, en neon manisk-seol maeg
>it
>maek or spraek ander-wejs.
"You are being extremely childish. But then, how could anyone expect a twice
expatriated Hamburger to understand the Lower Saxons?
I know a playground bully when I see one."
And now I would like to put a few things right: all I said is that I would
always refuse to "spy" on people who have decided that they do not care to
share their ancient language with the outside world, and rather have it die
when they do. All the deriding secret hush-hush stuff was posted by Ron, and
in the end he ended up mocking that as if I had said it, interpreting his
own interpretation. And not for the first time, may I add. And that was no
playful satyrical banter along the lines of "What, me hurtful? But I'm soo
cute with my little strap-on horns, as everyone can see!" I must say that,
like Ingmar, I actually found it somewhat mean-spirited. But I'll take a bad
day for an excuse any time.
I seriously do not think you understand the mindset of the older Lower Saxon
farming communities at all, or you would not insist on speaking of fear, of
all things. But then, this does not really matter. If they, or any other
other language community, decide for whatever reason to keep out the world,
linguists and all, then this decision needs to be respected, not ridiculed
or dismissed as some fear, whim, or superstition (don't those peasants know
we're the good guys?).
Please take more care to address really only what was being said; reading
between the lines is a fine art, but a dangerous one as well, and while
putting words and concepts in other people's mouths and then condemning them
is an ancient and powerful strategy in politics, I think it has no place in
other areas.
I'll be happy to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't do this
on purpose, but it is an issue on which we have clashed before, probably
because some of the things I say evoke entire concepts in your mind which
you then begin to eagerly address - forgetting that those concepts were your
own, not mine, to begin with. Do we detect a certain kinship with Don
Quijote here?
On a different note: I have always wondered why LS is so much less prominent
in daily life in Northern Germany than Bavarian or Suebian are in the south,
for instance. I think it is because Bavarians will always speak Bavarian to
anyone, because they consider it German the way it should be spoken. Same
with Suebia, Palatia, Hesse, Saxony - they all speak dialects of German, or
German with an accent. In the north, we basically speak High German with a
very slight accent that is often indiscernible to Germans from other
regions.
In contrast, Lower Saxon, which many think of as another German dialect, is
traditionally considered a completely different language, not just a
dialect, by the natives (so it seems that linguists CAN be right *grin*). I
am noticing all the time how the locals begin to tell a story... then ask
me: "Snackt ji Platt?"... and then switch over to LS, where Bavarians would
just have spoken Bavarian, and Suebians Suebian, because I am German, after
all, and will certainly understand when they speak German to me (many
Northerners don't, really).
Gabriele Kahn
----------
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.11 (03) [E]
>From Paul Finlow-Bates
On the subject of MS Ingmar, is there a particular reason for adopting a
largely Anglo-Scandinavian word order rather than a more "typical" German or
Lowlands one? It's probably one of the things that give it a certain
familiarty to me, but paradoxically it also rings a little strange when I'm
used to reading (or attempting to read) postings in other Germanic
languages.
Paul
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.11 (03) [E]
Ron wrote:
>In the case of Middelsprake, focus and scope are relatively narrow and, as
>far as I can tell, you have cast your net widely. Furthermore, I've been
>quite aware of the fact that in your case it's a labor of love without
>grandiose goals. When I suggested fiddling with a cross-Lowlands
variety, I
>was mostly joking, but I can see some educational value in such an
exercise
>because it requires dealing with both common heritage and "historical
static
>interference." However, at the same time I share your view that the
>educational value would easily drowned by the controversy it would stir
up.
Yes, I think little people would except a general Low Saxon, because in
their eyes it would be too far of their own dialect, and/or too much like
a different dialect (e.g. Hamburg LS) etc. The "problem" here is of course
that people aren't used to a standard. High German and Dutch are accepted
right away, even though they are not like the people's dialects, but they
are ready to use. In the Middle Ages there was at least some kind of unity
in Low Saxon during the Hansa, so maybe a common LS should go back to that
period and modernize it a bit?
What I have done myself is going back even further in time: I took the Old
Saxon from the famous Heliand, and modernized it just a little bit to see
how a real New Saxon would look like, without all the influences from
German, Franconian etc. NB: I'm speaking about the Continental Old Saxon
from the Netherlands and Germany, not about Insular Saxon in Britain.
So, what I did preserve the form of the Old Saxon vocables, but just adapt
them a bit into modern times by weakening unstressed vowels, lengthen
vowels in open syllables, simplify geminates and have i-mutation. The
grammar has been modernized and regulated a bit too. With this simple
formula, any Old Saxon word can be made into New Saxon which looks pretty
contemporary, and in another world might have served as a common Lowlands
language. At least it is independent and not relying on one of the modern
dialects or varieties...
NewSaxon OldSaxon (Heliand) English
fader [“fa:d at r] < fadar [“fadar] father
gast [gast] < gast [Gast] guest
salt [salt] < salt [salt] salt
machtig [“maxtIg] < mahtig [“maxtIG] powerful/mighty
sâft [sQ:ft] < sâft [sa:ft] soft
sendien [“sEndj at n] < sendian [“sEndjan] to send
ôder [“o:d at r] < ôðar [“o:Dar] other
eten [“E:t at n] < etan [“Etan] to eat
sechs [sEks] < sehs [sExs] six
beren [“bE:r at n] < beran ["bEran] to bear
helpen [“hElp at n] < helpan ["hElpan] to help
binden [“bInd at n] < bindan [“bIndan] to bind/tie
skip [skIp] < skip [skIp] ship
wike [“vI:k@] < uuika [“wIka] week
quik [kvIk] < quik [kwIk] alive/vivid
fîden [“fi:d at n] < fîðan [“fi:Dan] to find
jung [jUN] < jung [jUNg] young
wunde [“vUnd@] < uuunda [“wUnda] wound
wulf [vUlf] < uuulf [wUlf] wolf
fugel [“fU:g at l] < fugal [“fUGal] bird (c. fowl)
gume [“gU:m@] < gumo [“GUmo] man (c. groom)
open [“O:p at n] < opan [“Opan] open
storm [stOrm] < storm [stOrm] storm
dochter [“dOxt at r] < dohter [“dOxtEr] daughter
geboren [g@”bO:r at n]< giboran [jI”bOran] born
thûchte [“Tu:xt@] < thûhta [“Tu:xta] thought/seemed
thâchte [“TQ:xt@] < thâhta ["Ta:xta] thought (v)
brâchte [“brQ:xt@] < brâhta ["bra:xta] brought
fâhen [“fQ:h at n] < fâhan ["fa:han] to catch
sâfter ["sQ:ft at r] < sâftur [“sa:ftUr] softer
mâne [“mQ:n@] < mâno ["ma:no] moon
dâd [dQ:d] < dâd [da:d] deed
gâben [“gQ:b at n] < gâßun [“Ga:Bun] gave
hêr [he:r] < hêr [he:r] here
mêde [“me:d@] < mêda [“me:da] reward
lêt [le:t] < lêt [le:t] let
tîr [ti:r] < tîr [ti:r] fame
swîn [svi:n] < suuîn [swi:n] pig/swine
stîgen [“sti:g at n] < stîgan [“sti:Gan] to rise
stôd [sto:d] < stôd [sto:d] stood
hödien [“h2:dj at n] < hôdian [“ho:djan] to herd
brôder [“bro:d at r] < brôðar [“bro:Dar] brother
hûs [hu:s] < hûs [hu:s] house
bôm [bo:m] < bôm [bo:m] tree (c. beam)
dôd [do:d] < dôð [do:D] death
hauwen [“haw at n] < hauuuan [“haUwan] to hit/beat/hew
dêl [de:l] < dêl [de:l] part
êd [e:d] < êð [e:D] oath
sie ["si@] < sia [sia] she
lief [li at f] < liof [liOf] sweet, lovely
liuchten [“ly:Ct at n]< liuhtan ["liYxtan] to shine
liudkünnie [“ly:dkYnj@]<liudkunnia ["liYdkYn:ja] mankind, humanity
rewen [“rE:w at n] < hreuuan ["hrEUwan] to mourn
bydel [“bY:d at l] < budil [“bYdIl] usher
büdel [“by:d at l] < bûdil [“by:dIl] bag, pouch
Btw of the Modern Low Saxon dialects, New Saxon seems to be closest to
Westphalian and especially Hamaland varieties, which preserve final -e
from OS unstressed vowels, which have [Q:] from OS â and [a:] from OS a-,
[o:] and [e:] from ô and ê, [O:] and [E:] from o- and e-, etc. That it
because of the more conservative nature of these varieties, I guess.
Ingmar
>Oops! The text Gabriele wrote seems to be lost. No! It is not a
Freudian
>incident but is due to a brief power outage this morning. When power and
>the system came back, the saved version of the message was still there,
and
>I assumed it was complete. Obviously it was not. My apologies. Perhaps
>Gabriele still has a copy she can share. The gist of her message is
simple
>and easy: I am a childish playground bully, and she takes a stab at
>invalidating me and my challenges by referring to my upbringing in Hamburg
>and my status as a twice emigrant (which I take as inferring they are to
>blame for the irrelevance of my views, knowledge quest and challenges).
A Freudian power outage, then ;-) ?
I'm even more curious now if this is indeed what Gabriele intended to
write, or just your interpretation of it...
>Furthermore, among the early Germanic languages there seems to have been
no
>sounds like <ö> [2:] and <ü> [y:]. Old Norse and Old English are supposed
>to have them. In Old Saxon, Old Low Franconian and in Old German they
seem
>to have developed much later.
So, how many people still speak an early Germanic language as their mother
tongue today? Right, none, so that's not really valid argument. Among the
even earlier Germanic languages the great consonant shifts, Verner's,
Grimm's and other laws hadn't developed yet either, so one can always go
further back...
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