LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.17 (02) [E]
Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Fri Feb 17 16:31:07 UTC 2006
======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================
17 February 2006 * Volume 02
=======================================================================
From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.16 (04) [E/LS/German]
> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.15 (08) [E/LS]
>
> Ever since I first heard the expression "te griest" in my Getelands
> dialect
> (East-Brabant), I have been mystified by it. The meaning of it is "along a
> shorter or the shortest way" (for instance through, across a field). I
> wonder if the expression is known in other Brabant or Limburg dialects. I
> have an idea as to the origin of 'griest' and hope it might be
> corroborated
> elsewhere by words sounding even distantly like 'griest'. A friend of mine
> tells me that in the Tessenderlo area they use 'grieks' in exactly the
> same
> meaning, but don't jump to conclusions. It is clear to me that both words
> are a corruption of a third word.
> I hope some of you might be able to supply forms that could help solve the
> problem.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Roger Hondshoven
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hey, Roger!
>
> Have you considered the possibility that this _grieks_ ~ _griest_
> originated as an adverb in the superlative (_-(e)st_)? Is there an
> adjective or an adverb that is something like *_grie(k)_, *_grie(g)_ or
> *_grie_. Or could it be umlauted and related to German _gerade_
> 'straight' ((>?) LS _graad'_ ~ _gra_) -- *girâdist > (*_girêdist_ >)
> *_greist_ > _griest_ (> *_grieks_)?
>
> Taking wild stabs.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Hi Ron,
Thank you for sharing your views on the origin of the tantalizing word
'griest' with me. As a matter of fact I had already contemplated the
relationship with German gerade, Old High German girâdi and the action of
umlaut, but I didn't want to mention it for fear I should influence any
readers of my posting. But I hadn't thought yet of the possibility of a
superlative. Te griest stands all by itself; there are no such forms as
*grie(k/g). That's what makes griest so much more mysterious. I think you
made a highly valuable suggestion. It's not such a wild stab. Many thanks. I
hope some people might come up with comparable words.
Kind regards,
Roger
----------
From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.16 (04) [E/LS/German]
> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.15 (08) [E/LS]
>
> Ever since I first heard the expression "te griest" in my Getelands
> dialect
> (East-Brabant), I have been mystified by it. The meaning of it is "along a
> shorter or the shortest way" (for instance through, across a field).
In my Limburgish (Vliermaal) I would use "terwjaas".
E.g. not taking the road around a field but going straight over the field in
the shortest way. I guess in Dutch I would use "dwars over".
"Terwjaas" is also used for people who never agree and behave difficult in
decisions; I guess the closest in Dutch would be "dwarskop".
Regards,
Roger
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
A double dose of Roger today! Thanks, guys.
Roger (H.), you're most welcome. Well, perhaps there's something to our
provisional hypothesis if two brilliant minds have gone that way. ;-)
Roger (T.), _terwjaas_ sounds interesting, and I wonder if it is not also
connected with _dwars_, perhaps a matter of reanalysis.
In Low Saxon -- at least in the northern dialects, we use _dwars_ too,
pronounced [dva:s]. Its basic meaning is that of German _quer_:
'transverse', 'crossways', 'diagonally', 'across', 'at right angles',
'athwart' (!!!), 'aslant', 'abeam'.
_Dwars_ appears to be related to English "thwart" < Old English _þwert_ as
well as to German _quer_ and in some Low Saxon dialects _dwer_. (There is
this _þw-_ > _dw-_ ~ _kw-_ again, as related to some Slavonic loans such as
*_twarek_ > _kwark_ <Quark>.)
As for 'to take a shortcut', I'd probably say _dwars roever gaan_ in Low
Saxon. (What would the rest of you say?)
Like in the the case of English "thwart," _dwars_ and _quer_ come with
vibrations of "counter ...," "contrary" or "against," much like in "to
thwart" = "to cross" = 'to prevent'.
A common derivation of _dwars_ is _verdwars_ ~ _voerdwars_, which to my
understanding adds a clearer meaning of "contrary," such as in _Dat gayt my
verdwars_ 'That runs counter to what I'm trying to do', 'That bothers me'.
To my understanding, this connotes more clearly the sense of "crossing" than
does _Dat gayt my touwedder(n)_, where _touwedder(n)_ is mostly "against,"
"opposed" (as in "direct clash").
And, _dwars_ being a favorite word among Low Saxon speakers (not to mention
something approaching a cultural characteristic, as some of you may have
gathered by now), there are many other derivations, some of them interesting
and amusing. Here's a sampling (important words -- so take a note of
them!):
(ver)dwars snakken <(ver)dwars snacken> ("thwart-
talk") 'to talk in a contrary and opinionated manner',
'to talk back'
(ver)dwars verstaan <(ver)dwars verstahn> ("thwart-
understand") 'to misunderstand', 'to twist someone's
meaning'
(ver)dwars kyken <(ver)dwars kieken> ("thwart-look")
'to be cross-eyed', 'to peer', 'to leer', 'to squint'
dwarsloyper ~ dwarslouper <Dwarslöper> ~ <Dwarsloper>
[pl. _s] ("thwart-runner") 'crab'
dwarskop <Dwarskopp> [pl. _-köp_] ("thwart-head")
'eccentric person', 'person with odd ideas' [surely no one
*we* know]
dwarsdryver <Dwarsdriever> [pl. _-s] ("thwart-driver")
(1) 'bad navigator'; (2) 'contrary person', 'opinionated
person with non-mainstream ideas and attitudes'
[again, no one *we* would know here]
dwarsbüngel <Dwarsbüngel> [pl. _-s_] (< _Dwarsbü(t)tel_
"twart-bad"?) same as _dwarsdryver_ (2)
dwarsbuydel ~ dwarsbüttel ~ dwarsbüddel <Dwarsbütel> ~
<Dwarsbüdel> ~ <Dwarsbüttel> ~ <Dwarsbüddel>
("thwart-bag") [pl. _-s_] same as _dwarsdryver_ (2),
'weird person', 'absent-minded person', 'nerd',
'eccentric person'
dwarsmoel(en) <Dwarsmöhl(n)> ("thwart-mill(s)")
'helicopter' (jocular neologism, mostly in the far north)
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================
More information about the LOWLANDS-L
mailing list