LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.01.21 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

   L O W L A N D S - L * 21 January 2006 * Volume 05
=======================================================================

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Hi Ron and All

I too am interested in the talk about Celtic substrate
being the precursor to the High German sound shift.
The thing that bothers me is that Celtic languages
have (fairly heavy) aspiration. They would not
therefore have had a problem with Germanic aspirated
consonants, and would probably more likely have
reinterpreted these as unaspirated if their own
consonants were more heavily aspirated - which would
not automatically have led to affricated consonants.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the old
Celtic regions which became Germanic speaking first
Romanised? A Romance base leading to affrication seems
more plausible to me. Romance languages do not have
aspirated consonants, so hearing one for them is more
likely to sound like an affricate - i.e. consonant +
fricative - than for Celtic speakers where they would
just be copied with slightly heavier aspiration, but
no affrication. A Romance speaker, however, hearing
aspiration may adopt affrication to imitate this.

There might even be the case of all three working
together, so that Celtic speakers over-aspirate
Germanic consonants, and Romance speakers interpreting
this as affrication.

There's also the possibility that affrication of
aspirated consonants is just a natural process and has
nothing much to do with substrates, as in fairly
modern Southern British English and Danish affrication
of t, and Liverpool affrication of k, although the
latter could be attributed to Irish influence.

I quite like the idea of Southern Germanic as a
subgroup, although I feel that it's more likely that
Lowland languages have undergone certain changes which
German (and partly Dutch) didn't undergo, whereas
German went through changes which the Lowland
languages (this time including Dutch) didn't. Although
they're quite major phonological changes from both
sides, it's not enough to split them into separate
groups, as with Northern or Eastern Germanic, where
lexicon and morphology is also a lot more
differentiated from the other Germanic languages.

Anyway, just a few thoughts

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Gary!

Thanks for adding some more herbs and spices to the speculation brew.

I, too, speculate that what we are speculating about involved both Celtic
and Romance, namely Romance varieties on Celtic substrates, which is
consistent with what we know about ethnic history of the region.  Few
remnants of assumedly Celtic-influenced Romance are left on the north slopes
of the Alps, namely the various Rhaetic (Rhaeto-Roman, Rumantsch) varieties.
When you hear them spoken from afar they sound rather similar to Swiss
German (Alemannic), which surrounds them.  But we can't say exactly which
influenced which, or we might suspect that they influenced each other.
Indeed, degrees of aspiration varies within Rhaetic.

We find in Rhaetic another feature shared with Southern German, especially 
with Alemannic: /s/ changes to [S] (sh) syllable-finally and 
pre-consonantally (hence Alemannic _isch(t)_ for Standard German _ist_ 
'is').  It is a Germanic feature or a Rhaetic Celtic one that later spread 
northward?  It is shared with Portuguese, another Romance language used in a 
previously Celtic-speaking environment.  Coincidence?

Furthermore, there are front rounded vowels in Rhaetic (e.g., _ün_ 'one', 
'a'), as in Celtic-influenced French and Walloon, as also in Piedmontese on 
the Franco-Italian border (e.g., _ùe_ [ye]).  (Then again, they also exist 
in the "Italian" varieties of Lombardy (e.g., _trá sü_ 'to vomit', _trá 
fö(ra)_ 'to remove'), and this could be due to Germanic influence as well, 
given the
area's past (even though I always believed that umlauting had not yet 
started at the time of the Langobards' conquest).  And then there are the 
isolated Gallo-Italic varieties of Sicily; e.g., _cazzaör_ (Ital. 
_cacciatore_, Fr. _chasseur_) 'hunter', _cöss_ (Ital. _questo_) 'this',
_cör_ (Ital. _cuore_, Fr. _coeur_) 'heart', _dlör_ (Ital. _dolore_, Fr. 
_douleur_) 'pain', _sammöch_ (Ital. _sambuco_) 'elder'.

Then there are all those falling diphthongs with which Romance varieties on 
Celtic substrates abound.  In most cases they developed from short 
monophthongs, such as VLatin _mel_ > OFr. _miel_, Cast. _miel_ 'honey', 
VLat. _cor_ > OFr. _cuor_ > ModFr. _coeur_ 'heart', VLat. _sentio_ > 
Cast.Sp. _siento_ 'I feel'.  Note also Irish (and West Indian) English 
falling [o:a] where other English varieties have rising [o:U] from Old 
English /oo/.  French falling [oa] (<oi>) developed from a variety of 
sources (e.g., VLat. _meu_ > ModFr. _moi_ [moa], VLat. _trēs_  > ModFr. 
_trois_ [troa] 'three'), and Bayuvarian falling [oa] (e.g., _koã_ ~ _koa_ = 
StGerm. _kein_ 'no', 'none', _Loaw(e)_ 'bread' = StGerm. _Laib_ 'loaf', _Oa_ 
= StGerm. _Ei_ 'egg').

Note that strongest Germanic aspiration is found in the Upper Alemannic 
region (Switzerland and parts of Western Austria).  Northwest of there, 
though, along the Rhine, the Frankish-Rhenish varieties, "Middle" and "Low," 
all have no aspiration, as in French and Walloon.  So there was something 
special going on in the western Alpine area, and it seems to coincide with 
the area from which affrication eminated.  If it was due to the influence of 
a specific Alpine Celtic dialect group or if it was a sporadically occurring 
feature (as in English and Danish) may never be determined.

In the case of Mandarin strongest aspiration goes hand in hand with 
strongest affrication.  It occurs in the far northwestern regions, those 
that until fairly recently were not predominantly Chinese-speaking but 
predominantly Altaic- and Tibetan-speaking (mostly Turkic, Mongolic and Amdo 
Tibetan, the latter of which may have Altaic substrates, has no tones and 
has very strong aspiration and affrication).  So, depending on the following 
vowel, you get the following variants:

/p/ > [p_h], [pM_h], [p`_h], [pf_h], [px_h], [pMx], [p`x], [pfx]
/t/ > [t_h], [tM_h], [tf_h], [tx_h], [tMx], [tfx], [tS_h], [ts_h]
/k/ > [k_h], [kM_h], [kf_h], [kx_h], [kMx], [tfx], [kC_h], [C]

These realizations are rather similar for instance to those in Turkic and 
Mongolic Yughur ("Yellow Uighur") and in Uyghur, which are used in the area 
and also share with some of those Mandarin dialects palatalization of 
aspirated consonants (e.g., /ti/ -> [tS_hi]), and similar features are found 
in Tibetan of the region.  Thus, we are dealing with an areal feature that 
may have well emanated from Altaic.

(By the way, some of those farwestern Mandarin have only two tones, and 
there are reports about dialects without tones -- as opposed to four or five 
tones in Mandarin of the east.)

I'm not categorically declaring that the case of Alemannic and Alpine 
Romance is just like that, am only suggesting that the similarities are 
striking.

Keep stirring the broth!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================