LL-L "Phonology" 2006.01.26 (03) [E]

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26 January 2006 * Volume 03
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From: Heather Rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2006.01.26 (02) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>This means also that my tongue contact for d is apical and that for t
is laminal.<

Please explain 'apical' and 'laminal'

Thanks
Heather

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2006.01.26 (02) [E]

Hi Ron, are you really sure Dutch has an apico-alveolar <s>? I was never
aware of that, and I doubt it in fact, because I can hear such an <s> in
Spanish (of Spain), and indeed <Spanish s> is tending towards <sh>, but
that is really a different <s> as in Dutch.
And why do you say Dutch doesn't have [S]? There are more than enough
examples of it, usually written as <sj>, as in sjouwen, sjokken, sjofel,
meisje, lesje etc., or <ch> in loan-words like chocola, <sh> in <show>
etc. Probably you'll state that words with initial sj [S] etc are loans
from Frisian, Yiddish or other languages, or onomatopoeic, but that is
certainly not the case with initial {S] in dimunitiva.

Anyway, in the Standard Dutch I speak I don't have an apico-alveolar <s>,
but I just found out that I do in the Drenthe Low Saxon! And when I'd
speak Dutch with a broad LS accent, I use that same Spanish <s> as well!
The other Low Saxon variety I know well by my own experience, Achterhoek
LS, has the same <s> as in Dutch however.

Ingmar

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.01.26 (01) [E]


  From: R. F. Hahn
  Subject: Language varieties

  I often wonder that the apparent fact (?) that Old English had palatal
  alveolars ( [tS] (tsh) and [S] (sh)) becore other Germanic varieties
  is due to a Celtic (Briton) substratum, unless it is something that
  developed from Old Frisian varieties.

  Old Franconian, Old Saxon and Old (High) German do not seem to have had
  these sounds.

  From Paul F-B

  The retention of [sk] and [k] in Northern English, along with [g] as 
opposed to [-dge] in the South is generally attributed to Danish or other 
Scandinavian influence, and it certainly maps well with the Danelaw/Wessex 
boundary and with Danish place name distribution.  However... these areas 
were also largely Anglian (as opposed to! Saxon) speaking, and there is 
eveidence (I'm told) that Anglian never underwent the palatization of more 
southerly forms.  In other words the Scandinavians reinforced and existing 
pattern rather than changing back to an older one.

  The fact that other Germanic languages have since gone down the same route 
suggests to me that the change is somehow inherent in the sound patterns 
rather than being inflenced by contact.

  Paul

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, folks!

Heather, ...

"Apical": Produced by the tip of the tongue.

"Laminal":  Produced by the blade of the tongue

Ingmar, yes, I do hear lots of Dutch speakers use the apico-alveolar /s/. 
However, these seem to be mostly speakers from farther west, including 
Randstad communities.  Furthermore, it may well be on its way out, perhaps 
because of increasing and improving foreign language proficiency and its 
influences.  I remember it as a much more frequently encountered feature 
when I was a child, and it also was an important hallmark of Dutch, Danish, 
Finnish, Spanish and Greek accents in German.  Germans tend to perceive this 
("blunt s", as opposed to the "sharp s") as a part of _nuscheln_.  (Hence a 
German friend, agreeing with me that Latin American Spanish was much easier 
understood for us than was Spanish Castilian, once said about Spaniards, 
"Die nuscheln so.")

In the meantime I have posted my tentative Old (High) German translation of 
the wren story 
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=diutisc).  The 
(simplified) phonetic version illustrates what I mean.

Note also the dental /d/ having developed from the fricative interdental (as 
in English "thither").

I followed others in positing two kinds of /f/: (1) [f] derived from 
Germanic *f, and (2) bilabial [φ] derived from Germanic *p.

I would appreciate corrections and suggestions before I produce and post the 
accompanying sound file in a few days.

Thanks, and I am waiting for more anniversary activities ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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