LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.04 (09) [D/E/LS]

Tue Jul 4 21:27:30 UTC 2006

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 04 July 2006 * Volume 09
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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.03 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> Folks,
>
> In a rare quiet minute in which I was able to indulge in thinking
> up linguistic
> trivia it occurred to me that in West Germanic languages the
> simple word "man"
> and its respective equivalents comes with almost the full range of
> possibilities
> of plural derivation:
>
> -en
> Dutch: man -> mannen

West Frisian: man , pl . manlju or mannen
(dÃªr rinne twa mannen vs "dat is typysk foar manlju"

In old Frisian: "man" plural "men"
Umlaut, indeed. a before n was preserved in Frisian, or even rounded
to o: "mon"
(which is still the Saterlandic form). Plural in Saterlandic is
"monljude"
Wiedingharde Freesk has "muon", pl moans (in compounds, otherwise
kjarlse).
Frasch has "moon", plural mÃ¥Ã¥ns. The North Frisian also stem from "mon".
The -s plurals in NF seems influenced by Saxon.

> -e
> Afrikaans: man -> manne
>
> -er
> German: Mann -> MÃƒÂ¤nner
>
> -s
> Low Saxon: man -> mans (Mann -> Manns)
>
> Umlauting only
> Modern English: man -> men
>
> Plural + "people," "folk," etc.
> Modern English: man -> menfolk
> Low Saxon: man -> mansluyd' (Mann -> MannslÃƒÂ¼ÃƒÂ¼d')
>
> Notes:
>
> (1)
> Missing is the option of singular and plural forms being
> identical. However,
> this is not really an option given that it is reserved for certain
> animals
> considered food; e.g., fish -> fish, sheep -> sheep, deer -> deer,
> shrimp ->
> shrimp (but prawn -> prawns, crab -> crabs). By and large, this is
> the system in
> Low Saxon as well. Is it a Saxon thing?

It occurs in Frisian too: bern - bern, skiep - skiep. But it is
pretty rare.
Older West Frisian had "djier - djier" as well.

> (2)
> In this instance, you may argue that _-en_ and _-e_ are the same,
> since
> Afrikaans, like many or most Dutch dialects, has change _-en_ to _-
> e_ (though
> Dutch still spells it ).
>
> (3)
> Plural formation by umlauting only is often encountered in North
> Germanic
> varieties (e.g., Danish _man_ -> _mÃƒÂ¦nd_), and I wonder if "men"
> and "women" are
> Scandinavian-induced.

also Frisian (older, now extinct).

> (4)
> Many Low Saxon dialects don't limit the addition of _-luyde_ ~ _-
> luyd'_ ~ _-luye_
> ~ _-luy_ ('people', 'folk') to _man_. (This applies also to _vrou_
> ~ _vru_
> 'woman', which may become either _vrouens_ ~ _vruens_ or
> _vrouensluyd'_ ~
> _vruensluyd'_.) In many compound nouns in which the last component
> is _-man_,
> this _-man_ changes to _-luyd'_ (etc.) in the plural form; e.g.,

Frisian too: froulju (pronounced "frÃ´lje", like "manlju" is
pronounced "mÃ´lje"

> koupman -> koupluyd' (merchant(s))

keaplju

> amt(s)man -> amt(s)luyd' (official(s))
> timmerman -> timmerluyd' (carpenter(s))

timmerlju

Also in Dutch: kooplui, or kooplieden (more formal); timmerlui,
timmerlieden.

> varensman -> varensluyd' (seafarer(s), sailor(s))

farrenslju.

And neighbour = buorman, plural buorlju. (Dutch "de buren")

> muerman -> muerluyd' (bricklayer(s))
>
> These are or tend to be names of professionals, artisans, etc. The
> plural forms
> often connote the profession as a whole, in the olden days also for
> the
> respective guilds. Note that for instance _buman_ 'bogeyman' does
> not change to
> *_buluyd'_ but to _bumans_.
>
> Furthermore, it occurred to me that English "children" seems to
> represent another
> case of double plural. In Middle English the plural form _childer_
> was common,
> thus the _-er_ choice still common in German and Low Saxon for
> instance (_Kind_
> -> _Kinder_, _Kind_ -> _Kinner_), as well as the default pluralizer in
> Scandinavian. It seems to me that later on the now defunct _-en_
> morpheme was
> added, hence *_child+er+en_ = "children," exactly as in Dutch:
> _kind_ ->
> _kinderen_. In some Lowe Saxon dialect double plural occurs with _-
> s_ in this
> case: _kind_ -> _kinder_ ~ _kinders_ ( -> ~
> ). Doesn't
> this occur in Flemish as well? And in Afrikaans?

In Town Frisian "kynders" is said, and "kinders" is common in many
Dutch dialects, but also "kinder"
still occurs in Saxon and Limburgian dialects, if memory serves me.

Regards,

Henno

----------

From: 'Marcel Bas' <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.04 (03) [E]

Reinhard het geskryf:

> I think people that don't use _mans_ (and those that doubt
>that others do) would simply avoid it and use alternatives, such as _keyrls_.
>What do people think?

I don't know if Afrikaans has some parallells here and if it might be of any
help. In Afrikaans either ways, _mans_ and _manne_  are existant. They do not
mean the same, though, although they are both plural forms of the one word _man_.
_Manne_  denotes 'the guys', like strong men tapping each other on the shoulders
after they had a couple of beers in the bar. There's a very nice song by
Afrikaans singer/composer David Kramer "Hier sit die manne in die Royal Hotel".
There they have this great MÃ¤nnerbund-like atmosphere, when they can be _manne_
and talk nonsense and talk about anything they think of. Any presence of a woman
would be an intrusion :)  I believe you even have bars on the Platteland where
women are not allowed. OK, off topic!

And then you have the plural   _mans_ that has the default meaning. As in
_mansklerewinkel_ men's clothing shop', etc.

Best regards,

Marcel.

----------

From: 'jonny' <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de> 
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.04 (03) [E]

Beste Ron,

> Jonny, _mans_ *is* used, though less these days, being rare or absent in
> many
> areas. *I* have certainly heard and read it, and I have found it in all
> dictionaries just now when I double-checked. But this time I won't go to
> the
> effort to collect and serve examples, since that was fruitless last time.

Mannche, Mannche! Nu wees man ne sou ebeerig, Keyrl! Kiik inns bii GRIMM hier no:
http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/WBB/woerterbuecher/dwb/wbgui\?lemid=GM00930

Door findst' amend ouk nix van _mans_, obschounst de Grimm-BrÃ¶ders ouk all jÃ¼mmer
mol no NedderdÃ¼Ã¼tsch un' Nedderlandsch un Middel-NedderdÃ¼Ã¼tsch/-sassisch
rÃ¶ber-pliert hebbt.

Ick segg joo man blouts, wat *ick* dat noch narms un amend ne hoyrt hebb, un in
miin WÃ¶Ã¶rboykers steyht door ouk nix un gonnix van.
Ouk, wenn dat mool jichenseyn'n seggt or schreeven hett- dat is (in dissen Sinn)
'n heyl slecht Wourd un' grammat'sch ne tou houl'n.
(Just remember: in Google you find 2.8 million hits for German "Standart", though
"Standard" is meant and correct!)

Mit anner WÃ¶Ã¶r (man jÃ¼st fÃ¶Ã¶r 't Protokoll ;-), ouhn' Dii anne PlÃ¼nnen tou gohn):
_mans_ edders _Manns_ as Plural is *no miin Verneehm* keyn Wourd, dat in eyn
k'rekt Neddersassisch bruukt waar'n kunn or gÃ¤nzli' kann! FÃ¶Ã¶r mii is dat weller
eyn unnoydigen "Schlag unter die GÃ¼rtellinie" ("stroke below the belt") tou'n
Schooden van uns Neddersassisch. Ellers wullt Du al dat Regelwaarks Ã¶ber Kopp
smiiten?

Allerbest' Greutens

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Jonny,

Wou kÃ¼mt dat dat Du online-woyrdboyker gloyvst man nich drukte?

Wolfgang Lindow:
MANN, m., pl. Manns, MannslÃ¼Ã¼d

Harte & Harte
MANN, Mann, pl. Manns/-lÃ¼Ã¼d

Clara Kramer-Freudenthal
<quote>
Een Fro, or ok Manns in mien Ã–ller goht ober bloots no dat Soziolamt, wenn jÃ¼m
dat Woter an de Gurgel steiht, wiel se sik schoomt!
</quote>
http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2004/05/08/292469.html?prx=1

Claus Groth
<quote>
Wa arg de bÃ¶sen Manns doch sÃ¼nd!
</quote>
http://www.nio.uos.de/lit/gb_text.php?autor=Groth&werk=Quickborn

Claus Groth
<quote>
De Manns dar sÃ¼nd so karg un knapp
</quote>
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/germanica/Chronologie/18Jh/Voss/vos_g69a.html

Fritz Reuter
<quote>
De Manns de kiken Ã¤w're DÃ¶ren,
</quote>
http://www.nio.uos.de/lit/gb_text.php?autor=Reuter%2C+F.&werk=Hanne+N%26uuml%3Bte+un+de+l%26uuml%3Btte+Pudel

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com> 
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.04 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:
>
> I believe that _mansluyd'_ does not go with numbers (e.g., *_drey mansluyd_?).
> Is that right? Unmarked _man_ belongs to special phrases, I believe. So what
> about other cases? I think people that don't use _mans_ (and those that doubt
> that others do) would simply avoid it and use alternatives, such as _keyrls_.
> What do people think?
>
That's the practice in Twente: manvolk, eynen man/kerl, twey kerls (r is
not pronounced, but I think it should be written).

Henry

----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com> 
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.04 (03) [E]

> From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
> Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.03 (08) [E]
>
> Hi Ron,
> Here in West-Flanders we have also quiet a variety
> of possibilities:
>
> man -> man ! / mann' / mans / mannevolk
> -tweÃƒÂª man sterk (with the strength of two men)
> -vuuf mann' t'oÃƒÂ´pe (E: five men together)
> Here we prefer "vint/vint'n" (D: vent/venten)
> Pejorative in Dutch but
> not in Flemish.
> -mansdikte (E: the size/thickness of a man) -
> manshoÃƒÂ´gde (E: the
> hight of a man) - manslangde
> and:
> mannemins (D: mannenmens) <-> vroemins (D:
> vrouwmens)
> ...lui/...lieden is used in Dutch but not in
> Flemish.

Hallo, manlui en vrouwlui,

ik wou ook graag een cent in het zakje doen.

Ik ben ervan overtuigd dat in het oudgermaans 'man'
geen mannen of vrouwen aangaf, maar een
geslachtsneutrale aanduiding was.
Dus in oude, nog vigerende uitdrukkingen [zoals: een
manshoog paard] is niet noodzakelijk een man bedoeld

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

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