LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.05 (02) [E/F]

Wed Jul 5 21:17:35 UTC 2006

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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L O W L A N D S - L * 05 July 2006 * Volume 02
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From: 'Stellingwerfs Eigen' <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology'

Henno wrote:
> In Town Frisian "kynders" is said,

Ik wol leauwe dat "kyndes" faker brÃ»kt wurd as "kynders" as mv. foar "kyn"
yn it StÃªdsfrysk.
(I beleave that "kyndes" is more often used as "kynders" as plural for "kyn"
in urban Frysk.")
Mei freonlike groetnis uut FryslÃ¢n,
Piet Bult

----------

From: 'Roger Hondshoven' <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.04 (03) [E]

> Hi everybody,

In East-Brabant the normal plural for 'man' is 'manne'. After a numeral
'man' is used, e.g. vijf man. The form 'mans' occurs in expressions like 'ze
zijn mans genoeg' (voor een bepaald werk), which to me looks like a
genitive. 'Mans' also occurs in compounds like 'mansvolk, mansmins
(=mansmens), manslie.
'Vent' is rather pejorative.
'Vrouw' /vra:/ does not have a plural as such. We resort to compounds as
'vravolk, vralie'. Next to /vra:/ the compound 'vrames < *vramins is used.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven

> From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
> Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.03 (08) [E]
>
> Hi Ron,
> Here in West-Flanders we have also quiet a variety of possibilities:
>
> man -> man ! / mann' / mans / mannevolk
> -tweÃª man sterk (with the strength of two men)
> -vuuf mann' t'oÃ´pe (E: five men together)
> Here we prefer "vint/vint'n" (D: vent/venten) Pejorative in Dutch but
> not in Flemish.
> -mansdikte (E: the size/thickness of a man) - manshoÃ´gde (E: the
> hight of a man) - manslangde
> and:
> mannemins (D: mannenmens) <-> vroemins (D: vrouwmens)
> ...lui/...lieden is used in Dutch but not in Flemish.
>
> "kinders" is used frequently.
> Dim.: kindjes/kindertjes/kinnekes/manneke
> In Lille in France they have a french song called "Le petit quinquin"
> which means the little child (due to the immigrants of the 19th
> century ?)
> Manneke became mannequin in French.
>
> Groetjes
> Luc Vanbrabant
> Oekene
>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Morphology
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> In a rare quiet minute in which I was able to indulge in thinking
>> up linguistic
>> trivia it occurred to me that in West Germanic languages the
>> simple word "man"
>> and its respective equivalents comes with almost the full range of
>> possibilities
>> of plural derivation:
>>
>> -en
>> Dutch: man -> mannen
>>
>> -e
>> Afrikaans: man -> manne
>>
>> -er
>> German: Mann -> Mï¿½fÂ¤nner
>>
>> -s
>> Low Saxon: man -> mans (Mann -> Manns)
>>
>> Umlauting only
>> Modern English: man -> men
>>
>> Plural + "people," "folk," etc.
>> Modern English: man -> menfolk
>> Low Saxon: man -> mansluyd' (Mann -> Mannslï¿½fÂ¼ï¿½fÂ¼d')
>>
>> Notes:
>>
>> (1)
>> Missing is the option of singular and plural forms being
>> identical. However,
>> this is not really an option given that it is reserved for certain
>> animals
>> considered food; e.g., fish -> fish, sheep -> sheep, deer -> deer,
>> shrimp ->
>> shrimp (but prawn -> prawns, crab -> crabs). By and large, this is
>> the system in
>> Low Saxon as well. Is it a Saxon thing?
>>
>> (2)
>> In this instance, you may argue that _-en_ and _-e_ are the same,
>> since
>> Afrikaans, like many or most Dutch dialects, has change _-en_ to _-
>> e_ (though
>> Dutch still spells it ).
>>
>> (3)
>> Plural formation by umlauting only is often encountered in North
>> Germanic
>> varieties (e.g., Danish _man_ -> _mï¿½fÂ¦nd_), and I wonder if "men"
>> and "women" are
>> Scandinavian-induced.
>>
>> (4)
>> Many Low Saxon dialects don't limit the addition of _-luyde_ ~ _-
>> luyd'_ ~ _-luye_
>> ~ _-luy_ ('people', 'folk') to _man_. (This applies also to _vrou_
>> ~ _vru_
>> 'woman', which may become either _vrouens_ ~ _vruens_ or
>> _vrouensluyd'_ ~
>> _vruensluyd'_.) In many compound nouns in which the last component
>> is _-man_,
>> this _-man_ changes to _-luyd'_ (etc.) in the plural form; e.g.,
>>
>> koupman -> koupluyd' (merchant(s))
>> amt(s)man -> amt(s)luyd' (official(s))
>> timmerman -> timmerluyd' (carpenter(s))
>> varensman -> varensluyd' (seafarer(s), sailor(s))
>> muerman -> muerluyd' (bricklayer(s))
>>
>> These are or tend to be names of professionals, artisans, etc. The
>> plural forms
>> often connote the profession as a whole, in the olden days also for
>> the
>> respective guilds. Note that for instance _buman_ 'bogeyman' does
>> not change to
>> *_buluyd'_ but to _bumans_.
>>
>> Furthermore, it occurred to me that English "children" seems to
>> represent another
>> case of double plural. In Middle English the plural form _childer_
>> was common,
>> thus the _-er_ choice still common in German and Low Saxon for
>> instance (_Kind_
>> -> _Kinder_, _Kind_ -> _Kinner_), as well as the default pluralizer in
>> Scandinavian. It seems to me that later on the now defunct _-en_
>> morpheme was
>> added, hence *_child+er+en_ = "children," exactly as in Dutch:
>> _kind_ ->
>> _kinderen_. In some Lowe Saxon dialect double plural occurs with _-
>> s_ in this
>> case: _kind_ -> _kinder_ ~ _kinders_ ( -> ~
>> ). Doesn't
>> this occur in Flemish as well? And in Afrikaans?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ----------
>
> From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com>
> Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.03 (08) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>>
>> (1)
>> Missing is the option of singular and plural forms being identical.
>>
> "Er zijn twee man nodig om die kist te dragen"
> (Two men are needed to carry that crate)
>
> Does that example count?
>
>> (4)
>> Many Low Saxon dialects don't limit the addition of _-luyde_ ~ _-luyd'_ ~
>> _-luye_
>> ~ _-luy_ ('people', 'folk') to _man_. (This applies also to _vrou_ ~
>> _vru_
>> 'woman', which may become either _vrouens_ ~ _vruens_ or _vrouensluyd'_ ~
>> _vruensluyd'_.) In many compound nouns in which the last component is
>> _-man_,
>> this _-man_ changes to _-luyd'_ (etc.) in the plural form; e.g.,
>>
> We add "-volk": manvolk, vrouwvolk. We do add -luy for professions though.
>
> regards,
> Henry
>
> ----------
>
> From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com>
> Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.03 (08) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>>
>> (1)
>> Missing is the option of singular and plural forms being identical.
>>
> "Er zijn twee man nodig om die kist te dragen"
> (Two men are needed to carry that crate)
>
> Does that example count?
>
>> (4)
>> Many Low Saxon dialects don't limit the addition of _-luyde_ ~ _-luyd'_ ~
>> _-luye_
>> ~ _-luy_ ('people', 'folk') to _man_. (This applies also to _vrou_ ~
>> _vru_
>> 'woman', which may become either _vrouens_ ~ _vruens_ or _vrouensluyd'_ ~
>> _vruensluyd'_.) In many compound nouns in which the last component is
>> _-man_,
>> this _-man_ changes to _-luyd'_ (etc.) in the plural form; e.g.,
>>
> We add "-volk": manvolk, vrouwvolk. We do add -luy for professions though.
>
> regards,
> Henry

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