LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.07.08 (01) [D/E]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 08 July 2006 * Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.07.07 (04) [D/E]
From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: Phonology
.....It reminds me of the uvular /r/ in certain England English circles. We have
discussed it a while back, and the general concensus seemed to be that it was or
at least started as an affectation.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
I obviously missed that discussion - before my time maybe. The only ulvular "r"
I know of in England is in Northumberland in the far northeast, toward the
Scottish Border around Bamburgh and Berwick. That cetainly isn't an affectation,
it is a definite grass-roots dialect attested for centuries. What other examples
are there?
I assume such an affectation would be in mimicry of French, seen in some circles
as "cultured". But Scotland had far longer and closer associations with France
than England (the "Auld Alliance") and Scots might presumably be more inclined to
such influence than the English (who traditionally mistrust the French), but I
know of no ulvular "r" in Scotland, or at least in Scottish English.
Regarding the sound of "pound" like "pined", rhymes suggest that it was fairly
common in SE England, at least in the literate classes, in the 17th-18th C; where
they got it from I'm not sure, but it was unlikely to be Wales. You'd expect it
more on the Welsh Border if that were the case. That said, I had a Welsh boss in
South Africa, who didn't have much of a Welsh accent, but routinely said "sile"
for "soil" "fined" for "found" etc.
Paul Finlow-Bates
----------
From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.07.07 (04) [D/E]
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Phonology
>
>Another example appears to be the Southern English pronunciation of /au/ (_ow_,
>_ou_) as [aI] (e.g., "pound" sounding somewhat like "pined") that some here have
>argued to be an affectation, although it may have begun in genuine dialects. I
>remember that the Prince of Wales used to use that pronunciation and that
>meanwhile he's either toning it down or has actually gotten rid of it. Or was
>that some token Gallicism befitting his title, given that spelled _au_ is
>pronounced [aI] in Modern Southern Welsh? Is it pronounced that way in English
>of Wales?
>
In the 1970's the Two Ronnies on the TV here did a number of comedy
sketches with two posh businessmen whose accents were so affected they
had difficulty in communicating. One of them had the "pound/pined"
characteristic and I think the other had a tendency to pronounce initial
"h" where there wasn't any, resulting in misunderstandings like, "Drinks
are on the hice." "On the ice?" "No, the hice, the HICE!" I suppose it's
possible that Charles, being a great fan of comedy sketch shows, changed
his accent to avoid sounding like those two.
The classic and the best Two Ronnies linguistic sketch is the one where
a chap goes into a hardware shop to buy various items, "Four candles,"
he reads from his shopping list, and the shopkeeper puts four candles on
the counter. "No, no, four candles, FOUR CANDLES." "Well, there you are,
four candles." "No, four candles, 'andles for forks," and so on. I think
this was better because while in the other sketches the people were just
talking, in this one the shopkeeper was getting physically exhausted
from fetching all the wrong stuff. There, I've explained it til it's not
funny any more :)
There's no [au] -> [aI] affection in Welsh English as far as I know. It
seems that what was once pronounced [U] in Welsh has undergone a shift
to [i] in the south, including in the diphthong .
Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
----------
From: 'Marcel Bas' <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.07.07 (04) [D/E]
Hi Ron,
Oh, I understand! We were confusing the poshness of the /r/ with aspiration. I
believe that it was the Leiden /r/ that Jacqueline was referring to; such an /r/
at the end of words is a sure sociolectic marker. It is referred to as 'posh'.
That is why I thought that you agreed with Jacqueline on this specific sound. But
you just mentioned aspiration. Aspiration is not considered posh or prestigious
in the Netherlands.
When we talk about aspiration in Leiden; that is very much isolated, as you
mentioned. Maybe you have a point when you think in terms of a superstratum. Two
major influxes of people have changed Leiden and its language: first the
Protestant Southern Dutch and French inhabitants, of whom the majority spoke a
Romance language (Picardian, Henegouws, etc.). But no aspirations here, as far as
I can see.
A second influx came from the east of the Netherlands, from Overijssel. when I
listen to certain accents of Hengelo, Drenthe or Groningen, I cannot deny that
there is some aspiration in the anlaut-t. Listen to, for instance, Henk Kamp, the
minister of Defense, when he says "toch". It sounds like "tsoch". "Tsots", etc.
And in Groningen aspiration is normal, but without affricative:
"Tha nou eem" = "Toe nou, even".
These observations are entirely mine, so I could be wrong.
Best regards,
Marcel.
----------
From: 'Rikus Kiers' <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.07.07 (06) [E]
De Leidse R,
De leidse r is ingebed in een weide omgeving:
Den Haag en Wassenaar.Maar ook Rotterdam en omgeving hebben allemaal
varianten van die bijzondere r.
Zoals ik aleerder heb gemeld is de R verschillend in diverse plaatsen binnen
Nederland. Er is dus iets heel speciaals mee. Mijns inziens zijn
verwijzingen naar studenteninvloeden onzin. Studenten spelen in de
plaatselijke samenleving, als relatief besloten gemeenschappen, een
marginale rol. Zelfs in Groningen, waar studenten beslist dominant zijn ,
vergeleken met andere universiteitssteden, is de relatieve geisoleerde
studentengemeenschap niet of nauwelijks beinvloedend voor de
taalontwikkeling in de stad.
Een Leienaar hoort het verschil met de Haagse of Wassenaarse r. Ik
nauwelijks. Ik hoor meer overeenkomst dan verschil.
Er moet dus meer aan de hand zijn.
Vriendelijke groet,
Rikus Kiers
----------
From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl
Subject: LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.07.07 (06) [E]
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Marcel,
>
> I did not make my meaning clear enough apparently.
>
> I was not referring to retroflection (which I have heard in other
> Dutch dialects
> as well) or to any other Leiden dialect feature but specifically to
> aspiration.
>
> As far as I know, aspiration is a totally atypical feature in
> Franconian,
> including all sorts of Rhenish varieties. When aspiration pops up
> in a certain
> locale and is geographically very limited, i.e., isolated (which I
> believe is the
> case, unlike retroflection), you've got to ask why there is this
> "aberration."
> Possibilities are (1) substrates and (2) superstrates, something
> that is specific
> to the exact area. Perhaps at one point in time there was massive
> influx of
> outsiders into that area, and their influence did not reach beyond
> it. (This
> could be, for instance, immigrants from the east. Is there anything
> in Leiden's
> history about this, perhaps in connection with Leiden's strong
> defense of
> Protestantism?) It could also be an original affectation (in
> academia, for
> instance) that ended up spreading to other sectors of the
> population. Just
> because it *began* as an affectation does not necessarily mean that
> it is an
> affectation *now*.
Not the east, the south. Leiden had a heavy influx of Flemish "laken"-
workers,
(during our 80 year war with Spain) because the southern Netherlands
(Brugues etc)
and Leiden had a strong reputation in those areas, and the south was
occupied at the time
and was less affluent. The Leiden dialect inherits most of its
typical traits (eg in vocabulary)
from this time. It's been called the most northern Flemish dialect :)
But I don't think the aspiration is caused by this substrate, though,
but the Leiden dialect has always been
a special case within Holland. This isolation might be part of an
explanation....
See the book on city dialects of Dutch ("stadtalen" or something
similar; I have it)
Henno
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology
Thanks, guys. This is all very interesting.
Marcel, it's always very intriguing to me when a specific dialect acquires a
seemingly aberrant feature, because getting to the bottom of it teaches us a lot
about language change, language contacts, linguistic isolation and the like, all
in handy miniture format, so to speak, especially when we know enough about local
history, social dynamics and the like.
This goes for the uvular /r/ in England as well, be it an affection or a dialect
feature. I'm glad I ran this by you, Paul, because when we discussed this
earlier (obviously before your tenure) the consensus was that it started as an
affectation. Both could be the case, at least in theory, though probably not in
Northumberland. I really don't know where the few people came from that I heard
use a uvular /r/. They had different accents otherwise and all where academics,
which added to my suspicion that it was a sociolectical feature in their cases.
Oh, one of them was this scientist guy on the telly, the guy that talked in a
very animated way. Wasn't he an archeologist or somethin'?
It's very interesting that the uvular /r/ developed in Northumberland. In theory
at least, it doesn't have to have a French connection, or a Flemish one for that
matter (given that Wales, Scotland and Northumerland once absorbed lots of
Flemish artisans). Why *would* a uvular /r/ develop in one place and not in a
neighboring place? Take Southern Sweden (Scania) versus the rest of Sweden, for
instance. Scania and Denmark have the uvular /r/, so does the Bergen area in
Norway and no other areas in Norway. Low Saxon influence, given that Bergen was
a Hanseatic stronghold? I don't think so, rather think it's Danish influence.
Low Saxon has the apical ("tongue") /r/, and I assume so did Middle Saxon. So
Danish and Scanian as well as Bergen are "uvular islands."
A Finnish person once told me that a number of people in Finland, both Swedish-
and Finnish-speaking, first use a uvular /r/ when they start speaking. No one
seems to know why, given that their families don't use it. At least at that
time, this was considered a speech impediment in Finland, and such children were
given speech therapy to make them snap out of it. So, one person's speech
impediment is the other person's standard. Perhaps in some places it's simply
one or the other that wins the day. French influence may have originally brought
on an affectation that became mainstream. Or French influence may have
reinforced a "uvular minority." Or there may have been no French influence at
all. In the case of Northern Germany, the apical /r/ used to be normal until my
parents' and grandparents' days. My father used it, and so did my best friend's
father, in fact most of the local old-timers. But then again, they all spoke Low
Saxon as well. It was my generation that almost uniformly used the uvular /r/ in
German, and that was obviously the effect of increasing Germanization, mostly by
way of the electronic media and educational mainstreaming. In the case of
Missingsch (i.e., German on Low Saxon substrate) it was about 50-50% with the
uvular camp eventually gaining ground. If you "rolled" your /r/ speaking
Missingsch you just had a "thicker," more authentic or old-timy accent. (I use
the apical /r/ in my Missingsch narration:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/missingsch-hamburg1.php).
As for /au/ being pronounced [aI], Welsh connection was just a wild stab on my
part, given that Welsh written _au_ (assumedly once pronounced *[aU], perhaps
still in Middle Welsh) is pronounced [ai] in the north and [a1] in the south.
Welsh has obviously undergone an extensive high unrounding process, often
preceded by a fronting process, much like fareastern Germanic varieties have in
Slavonic environments, e.g., Mennonite Low Saxon (Plautdietsch) and Yiddish, not
to mention many other Low Saxon and German dialects (e.g., Old German /ou/ > *oü
> E.Yidd. [Oi] (but Baltic Yidd. [OU]) as in הויז _hoyz_ 'house', and Old German
/u(u)/ > *ü(ü) > [i(:)] (Baltic Yidd. [u(:)]) גוט _gut_ [gi(:)t] 'good'. Apart
from foreign influence or lack thereof, I think this has something to do not only
with lip formation but also with jaw fronting, and I can see how this can occur
sporadically or can be caused or favored by contacts with languages in which this
took place.
Sandy, I used to watch the "Two Ronnies" show religiously when I lived in
Australia, and I thought that many of their sketches where pretty funny. In
fact, I saw all of what you described. (Thanks for reminding me!) I was
saddened by the recent news that Ronnie Barker passed away (October 3, 2005).
Interestingly, Ronnie Corbett is Scottish, from Edinburgh. You wouldn't have
guessed that. (At least I wouldn't have.) In fact, his infrequently featured
Scottish accents didn't seem all that convincing to me.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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