LL-L 'History' 2006.07.20 (01) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 19 July 2006 * Volume 01
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From: Lone Olesen <istranza at yahoo.dk>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.13

Hello to all,
not being able to check my mail at home anymore - so
I'm even more behind...

'Mark Dreyer' <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:

> I'd like to offer an exception here: Alfred the
> Great (touching on another
> string). & by the way, what would rate as formal
> education in & around
> 850AD, unless you were in the novitiate?

I'd like to comment on that - surely, most kings of
the time must have been able to read something. It
cannot have been "invisible" to them that you gain
more power as a ruler if you can do it yourself,
instead of having to rely on others to read everything
for you - and trust them to read the actual content so
that you don't sign the wrong agreements...
Different thing with writing - when you have "people"
to do it for you, and with a beautiful handwriting
too, it might have been less important.
The trouble is we can't really know. But eg. if I may
bring up Canute (or Knud - actually English historians
call him Cnut these days, since Canute is the latin
version), there is no doubt he made sure *all*
agreements etc. were written down - so he certainly
understood the importance of it, but no record tells
us wether he read or wrote himself, besides signing
his own name.

Btw. I come to think about the book "Othere and
Wulfstan, two travellers at the court of King Alfred"
(don't recall the publisher right now). Basically to
accounts of travels from Norway and eastwards. From
the documents it seems that one traveller might have
been able to make himself understood directly, the
other probably needed an interpreter, since the text
reads like a resume of his account with most markers
of direct speech missing.

rgds, Lone Olesen

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L 'Genetics' 2006.07.19 (03) [E]

On 20/07/2006, at 8:05 AM, Obiter Dictum <obiterdictum at mail.ru> wrote:
>
> Subject: LL-L 'Genetics' 2006.07.19 (01) [E]
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> Why, it sounds like Anlo-Saxons just _literally_ *out-bred* Britons. Вывели¸
>
> (vyvely) them like pests (= outmarried, outborn, outnumbered and finally crouded
>
> out). Ne?

I think it was Alexander Pope who wrote the wonderful poem "The True Born
Englishman" that gives a realistic pedigree of such a person
based on the numerous invasions. Well worth a read if you can track it down.

Regards

Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia

Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From: Heather Rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Genetics' 2006.07.19 (02) [E]

David wrote on :lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>The rather insulting idea that the British isles were successively
invaded by racially
superior people from the continent and inferior (but perhaps more
interesting
and poetic) people (Picts, Celts, etc.) were pushed to the fringes of the
island
(and Ireland) is quite an old one,<

I have just read an article tracing the patterns of Anglo-Saxons brooches
discovered in the UK and linking them to known patterns from Northern
Germany. Apart from being an interesting article in itself, what struck me
were the maps showing the sites from which these brooches had been
recovered. Whatever the pattern and whatever the connections with N.
Germany, it was clear that a line could be drawn from Bristol to the Humber
and on the NW side of this line, no brooches at all had been recovered.

This poses many questions
1. In this area are there brooches but just undiscovered and so not mapped?
2. In this area are there no brooches to discover?
3. Did the A/S give up wearing brooches in this area ( Frivilous, I grant
you )
4. Did the A/S themselves penetrate this area as thoroughly as history
would have us believe?
5. Since this article was written, have A/S brooches been found in this
area?

Or some other reason that you can come up with???

best wishes
Heather

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'Genetics' 2006.07.19 (01) [E]

    From: Sandy Fleming
    Subject: LL-L 'Genetics' 2006.07.09 (02) [E]

    This article on the BBC News site seems very relevant to some of the
    discussions we've had on Lowlands-L recently and in the past:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5192634.stm

    Sandy Fleming
    http://scotstext.org/

    ----------

    From: R. F. Hahn
    Subject: Genetics

    Thanks a lot, Sandy. It's very interesting.

    Am I misreading something, or is there a contradiction? On the one hand they
    talk about apartheid, and on the other hand the guy says the British population
    got absorbed within the span of only a few centuries.

    Regards,
    Reinhard/Ron

There is quite a bit of discussion of this on an Old English site I visit.  There
are some odd politics about the issue of English settlement that seems to cut
across logic.  For some reason there is a desperate need to deny any Germanic
origins to England or English, and an obvious difficulty with reconciling this
with the basic language.  We therefore have a range of such theories, which,
conveniently, are completely unprovable - and as you point out Ron, often
self-contradictory.
 
Another sad, if indirect, consequence of the man with the toothbrush moustache I
fear.
 
Paul Finlow-Bates

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From: 'Ria Noome' <ria.noome at deneloptronics.co.za>
Subject: LL-L 'Genetics' 2006.07.19 (02) [E]

Good day
Just a few words for Mr David Clare. I am from South Africa and I am of Africaner
stock as you describe it and at this moment I am not as you say in a good mood
for your kind of stock. We Afrikaner stock will last for a long time. What is you
peoples problem with the Afrikaner stock? are you afraid of us? are we too strong
for you? I know apartheid was not right so does alot of other cultures history
stories. Many countries have a history that was not right like you say Ireland
how they were treated in the past, look as Russia what did they do in there past
and still doing. Some people in Russia still lives in the most horrible
situations like nobody can think of and what are you people saying about that o
sure you dont want to go their because it suits everybody to talk about South
Africa's apartheid because you all want to be in the limelight but you dont want
to talk about the right of people in India look at the places where Sister
Theresa worked horrible, o now, that you dont to talk about its racism in the
highest manner and what do you do about that and there are many excamples, if you
want to me take find it I will and I will mail it to you.
I am an Afrikaner and I am proud of it and we will be here for a very long time.
Those Afrikaners who are not proud of their heritage its their problem, but for
sure I will work with different cultures here and so do many other Afrikaner, you
get those Afrikaners that totally on the left wing - you get the Klug Klug Klan
in America and what do you say about them why always point the finger to South
Africa do you think racism is not in America I tell you David its more in America
than here in South Africa and what about Germany?
I am proud of my Country with Mbeki as President and all, we do have problems so
do you, we do must find some ways to work things out not too invade other peoples
heritage, culture etc, so do you. So leave us alone, try to find solutions for
your own problems I do think they are more than ours. We will do our thing and
try to do your thing.
Ria Noome
Proud to be a Afrikaner from SOUTH AFRICA!!!!!

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Folks,

As you can see, I have combined "Genetics" and "History."  I did so because they
began to overlap greatly in the area of history.

Dear Ria,

Thanks for deciding to come forward as a "vocal" member, en 'n baie vriendelike
welkom onthalwe van almal. 

I cannot and will not talk for David other than to say that I am under impression
he is too intelligent and educated to "have it out" for Afrikaners, and, unless I
was grossly inattentive, there didn't seem to be anything disparaging about any
South Africans in his remarks that I have read.

I can assure you, however, that this is a forum that does not condone or
encourage expressions of anti-Afrikaner sentiments and that has always endeavored
to dispell the simplistic, popular-media-fed notion that "Afrikaner" and "racist"
are synonymous.  This will certainly be the case as long as I have anything to do
with it.  On the personal side, as a born and raised German I know very well how
hurtful history-based stereotyping can be.  

We are not in the business of bashing Afrikaners, Britons, Germans or anyone
else.  Neither are we in the business of mud-slinging and casting stones
(especially with so many glass houses around).  Our general objective is to come
together across fences as individuals, to compare notes and to discover what we
have in common and what makes each person's home area or area of interest
special.  In other words, we are here to share and learn, and hopefully all of us
will come away from it enriched, more insightful and more compassionate.

Vriendelike groete en beste wense,

Reinhard/Ron

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