LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.07.25 (07) [E]

Wed Jul 26 17:54:44 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 26 July 2006 * Volume 07
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From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.07.25 (04) [E]

Paul, you wrote:

> ..., though I couldn't understand a word when they spoke to each
> other.

I must add one thing, as I wrote German and Tyrolean are mutually intelligible.
It's only if you are used to Tyrolean and other Southern-German dialects. In the
German speaking world everybody knows this Bavarian-Austrian idioms from
Heimatfilmen, "Sissi-"Filmen (actually I think I got my first name from Karlheinz
BÃ¶hm who played the Kaiser in these films) Schlagermusik, Volksmusik etc. When
Tyroleans notice that someone is not from a German speaking country they don't
expect to be understood and switch to Standard-German (or a sort of it, kind of
Alpine "Missingsch").

Karl-Heinz

----------

From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Language proficiency' 2006.07.25 (04) [E]

> From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz'
>
> He probably didn't speak a single word in Standard German. About 90 %
> of the
> people in the Tyrol never do.
>
> Aw, that's not fair! I visited the Zillertal last month; they all spoke
> Standard
> German to me, though I couldn't understand a word when they spoke to each
> other.
> Or doesn't the Zillertal count as "Tyrol"? I'm not exactly sure about the
> boundaries of the region.
>
> Paul

I don't think, that I'm unfair. I see that more as a compliment for them, I
always admire them speaking dialect in every situation of life.

It is Tyrol politically, confessionally the eastern part of the valley belongs to
"DiÃ¶zese" Salzburg. Zillertal is a side-valley in the so called "Tiroler
Unterland" (the part of Tyrol east of Zirl/Innsbruck, "am Unterlauf des Tiroler
Innflusses"), and so Zillertalerisch is subsumed under "UnterlÃ¤ndisch"-Tyrolean
(literally "lowlandic"-Tyrolean), which gradually merges into Salzburgisch going
eastwards.

One of the best known Tiroler UnterlÃ¤nder today (from KitzbÃ¼hel) is Ex-SkilÃ¤ufer
and now SchlagersÃ¤nger and Heimatfilm-actor Hansi Hinterseer. He never ever will
use Standard-German for talking, only in his songs he does. I remember to have
seen one of his first films, where he was synchronised.

Certainly, in tourist regions they speak Standard German and English. But as you
noticed to each other they speak only the local language and also to other
German-speaking people, as they expect from Standard-Germans to be understood.
UnterlÃ¤ndisch-Tyrolean and Standard-German are more or less mutually intelligible.

The teens and twens today maybe more standard-German speaking than the people
30+. I think the younger feel more freely to speak it. Standard-(Northern-)German
is pretty influential to language use of the young in all German speaking
countries today, as at the moment German youth-culture is totally dominated from
what I'd call Northern-Germany. You know "WeiÃŸwurschtgrenze". For example this
song "Ich bin ich, dass allein ist meine Schuld" from a Berlin Popgroup. This is
the most perfect northern High-German I can imagine and a pretty attractive
language, regarded as "vorbildlich" not only by the youngsters. But the young
today are quite ready to adopt it.

Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language proficiency

I think you are right, Karl-Heinz.  It is mostly in touristy places that
Bayuvarian-speaking locals are eager to speak their versions of Standard German
to accommodate outsiders, mostly because these are "guests" in the sense of
"customers."  I, too, admire Bayuvarian speakers for otherwise consistent use of
their dialects.  Many tend to see it as "backwards" and as an expression of
conservative attitudes (as a bad thing) and anti-"Prussian" sentiments, as a sort
of "obstinate" attitude.  Whatever the reasons, they are fond and proud of their
language and their cultures, and there's something to be said about that. 
Besides, they are quite aware that even North Germans understand their dialects
fairly well, unless they talk too fast and use lots of "weird" localisms.

Even if Northerners speak *real* (i.e., Missingsch-based) Northern German they
are fairly well understood in Bavaria and Austria, though there may be the off
strange word or expression.  It's a different matter if they speak Low Saxon. 
People might understand no more than a few words.  This may well increase now
that English proficiency has increased and many Low Saxon words are recognized
via that language (e.g., _Water_, _Schipp_, _Katt_, _Heven_, _eet!_, _Pott_,
_Buddel_ and _DÃ¼vel_), but that would still leave lots of unrecognized words and
expressions, such as _faken_ 'often', _Teems_ 'sieve', _Gatt_ 'hole', 'backside',
_daal_ 'down(ward)', _baven_ 'above', _buten_ 'outside', _gÃ¼nt_ 'yonder', _dwars_
'across', 'sideways', _gries_ 'gray', _plinkÃ¶gen_ 'to wink', _nickkÃ¶ppen_ 'to
nod', _smÃ¼Ã¼stern_ 'to smile', 'to smirk', _tÃ¼nen_ 'to fib', 'to tell tall tales',
_Koppwehdaag'_ 'headache', _Sleef_ 'wooden spoon', 'ladle', _Ruut_ 'window pane',
and _Tweeschen_ 'twin(s)'.  This would include numerous cognates of German words
that are not recognizable for the average person, such as _Tuun_ 'fence',
'garden' (G _Zaun_), _witt_ 'white' (G _weiÃŸ_), _swatt_ 'black' (G _schwarz_),
_dwangswies'_ 'coersively' (G _zwangsweise_), _ruut_ 'out' (G _raus_, _hinaus_),
_smarten_ 'to hurt', 'to be painful' (G _schmerzen_), _Kark_ 'church' (G
_Kirche_), and , _taag_ 'tough' (G _zÃ¤h_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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