LL-L "Negation" 2006.06.07 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 07 June 2006 * Volume 01
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From: 'jonny' <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L 'Negation' 2006.06.05 (01) [E/LS]

Beste Reinhard,

you wrote:

> though _nie nich_ ("never not") is definitely common.
As I wrote before: definitely not in our region, and I've never heard it
elsewhere by any real LS-speaker used in a serious way! Don't try to teach me my
'own' language, please.

I don't doubt you to have heard it several times, but either spoken by very
uneducated people (in Standard German as well as in LS) or by people making a
little joke, always being aware of the uncorrectness of this idiom. It are these
folks who put our LS into the corner of being a ridiculous language and you
should avoid like hell to encourage this kind of pidgination!!!!!

If we want to strengthen a negation we could for instance add LS: _al me Leev
ne'_, _opp dennen Doud ne'_, G: _nie im Leben_, _auf den Tod nicht_, _den ganzen
Tag nicht_ or just a strongly stressed _niemals!_.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Negation

Moin, Jonny!

I agree with you in so far that you say double negation in Low Saxon dialects
tends to be overplayed, for "effect," and at least to some degree I agree that
this tends to involve faking on the basis of "ignorant" talk.

However, although I fully accept your word that it does not occur in your area,
double negation does occur in many or most other dialects under two conditions:

(1) emphatic negative (rarely used but used nevertheless)
(2) with _ny_ (<nie> 'never') and often written as one word (<nienich>)

This latter usage (at the very least) has nothing to do with faking but is both
verbal and written standard among native speakers.  I assume it began as an
emphatic _ny_ and thus means something like English "never ever."  But in many
dialects it has become the default, and I use it that way myself.  This is not a
matter of "occasionally" but of "usually."

Examples from genuine speakers:

Clara Kramer-Freudenthal:
So swoor wüür mien Hatt noch nie nich.
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/heiner.html

Jonny Meier:
Ies harrn wi jo noch nie nich harrt, ...
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9160/eenies6.html

Christa Heise-Batt:
Dat harr se noch nie nich daan, man dat maak ehr richtig Freid.
http://www.zfn-ratzeburg.de/autoren/christa_heise-batt.htm

John Brinckmann:
Dor wiren woll weck, de säden, Käppen Pött hadd nie nich sin Näs' æwer 'n Belt un
Skagerrack rutesteken; ...
http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/brinckmn/ohmunick/ohmunick.htm

Recording from Naumburg/Saale:
He a'wuort'te awer un sprok tom voa'r: ick deen' di nu schon so vöäl joahr un
haw' nie nich dien gebott öäwertröä'n un do häst mi nie nich 'n buck göäwen, dat
'k met mien frün' fröhlich sin künn'.
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/wink007alge01/wink007alge01_012.htm

Marlou Lessing:
Un dat Hochwater in de Strööm, sowat heff ik noch nie nich sehn.
http://www.plattpartu.de/natur/sunn09.htm

Jack Drieger:
Wan eena nich em Wota sprinjt, woat eena uk nienich schwamen learen,
nich soo ...
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0305a&L=plautdietsch-l&P=1254

It is true that _nie nich_ is often exploited as "silly talk," also used in
German.  But this does not change the fact that it is widely, frequently and
seriously used in Low Saxon.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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