LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.27 (07) [E/LS]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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   L O W L A N D S - L * 27 March 2006 * Volume 07
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.27 (04) [E]

"I live by the station" (< ek woon by die stasie)
"I'm busy relaxing" (< ek is besig om uit te rus)
"Will you come with"? (< Sal jy saamkom?)

Marcel,
People here in the western US use all three of those. I'm busy relaxing
sounds a bit on the awkward side, but it is usable. "Will you come with" is
especially used when, for example, the context is already determined. My
family is going to a party. Will you come with?

Ben

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From: Stellingwerfs Eigen <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.27 (04) [E]

> Ingmar wrote:
 > In fact that would be an interesting question: do the Low Germans learn
 > the related foreign language English out of their mother tongue, or
 > through High German. And is there any Low German influence on their
 > English, rather than High German? And is this similar to the Dutch
 > influence on English?

Ik daenk dat et niet alliend een noord-zuud kwestie is mar (daornaost) ok
aj' single of multi-taelig grootbrocht binnen. Stel je veur:
D'r staon twie maegies en ien joongien van ongeveer vuuf, zes jaor oold
mittenneer te praoten op straote. Et joongien is krek uut 'Hollaand' bi'j
oons in de buurt kommen te wonen en iene van de maegies is alliend in 'it
Frysk grutbrocht'. Et Hollaanse joongien een et Friese maegien kun mekeer zo
goed as niet begriepen. Et aandere kleine maegien is drie-taelig grootbrocht
in et Stellingwarfs, et Fries en et Nederlaans. Bi'j een stok of tien grote
meensken die as d'r ommetoe stonnen vul de mond eupen hoe perfekt et
drie-taelige maegien tussen die aandere beide ston te 'tolken'. Ie meugen
drie maol raoden van wie dat drie-taelige maegien iene was...!

In oons Holland koj' et trouwens wel vaeker tegen. Zok ien-taelig volk het
zo-wie-zo vaeks (aanders as verstaandelik) gien weet van en gevuulte mit et
feit dat d'r überhaupt meertaelighied bestaot. Ze holen heur daor ok
gienertied mit doende. Quote van een Hollander: "Friesland, hoe zijn we daar
aangekomen? Hebben we dat ergens mee gewonnen of zo?" Daoromme daenk ik dan
ok dat et niet alliend komt van in wat tael aj' grootbrocht binnen mar meer
nog et feit dat aj' MIT tael grootbrocht binnen.
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf (Fryslân).
Piet Bult

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.27 (04) [E]

>From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.27 (02) [E]
>
>But very interesting are the africanderisms in the English language of
>native English speakers in South Africa. There are quite a few:
>
>"I live by the station" (< ek woon by die stasie)
>"I'm busy relaxing" (< ek is besig om uit te rus)
>"Will you come with"? (< Sal jy saamkom?)

The first two sound like normal English to me (although for the first one I 
would expect "next to", "beside", or "near" to be more common than "by" 
these days). The last is increasingly common in the US, but is usually 
associated with the Chicago area (where it may have started among the German 
or Dutch immigrant communities). I've heard a lot of Californians using it 
in the last several years. So I'm so sure these could be classified as 
"Africanderisms".

Kevin Caldwell

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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at calt.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.27 (04) [E]

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.27 (02) [E]

Dear all,
Like Jonny, I wonder if, in general, learning English as a communication 
skill may be easier for Lowlands language speakers. Often learning another 
language relies on mimicry and confirmation first and predictability 
according to theory second. The general assumption is that learning a second 
language as an adult is different to learning a language as a child: the 
former is much more abstract and comparative, and referential to a pattern. 
So, as we watch Reinhard climb higher up the Tower of Babel, we see that his 
switching between languages becomes more conscious, whilst we down below 
admire the judicious placement of his pitons.

I agree with Jacqueline and have experienced the same things many times. 
Ocassionally I give a formal presentation in Dutch and I find that these 
days unless I have been "home" for a substantial period of time, I have to 
write much of it down before hand. In English I am far too lazy and just 
"rabbit" on. So much of what we say is done through metaphor, and apart from 
trying to keep up  with the rapid turn-over of disposable analogies, often 
the reason a figure of speech gained and retained currency in the first 
place is because it said exactly and equisitely what was unable to be said 
so precisely literally - to the point that some metaphors acquire a literal 
primary meaning. That makes them very difficult to translate and you usually 
have to hunt for another one. My mother's "Brand is erger" became "Worse 
things happen at sea."

On the other hand, I often recite the alphabet in Dutch when looking up a 
word in an English dictionary, and often unwittingly count in Frisian. It 
makes sense, as the latter was my "memmetaal", whereas Dutch the language of 
instruction at school. Sometimes 'surface" learning becomes unshakably 
entrenched in the neural networks. Apparently I shall rely upon it in my 
dotage.

Cheers
Andrys 

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