LL-L "Grammar" 2006.05.15 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 15 May 2006 * Volume 02
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From: "David Barrow" <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2006.05.14 (06) [E/German]

>Gabriele wrote:
>
>>Andy wrote:
>>
>>>Me and many other English speakers don't use whom at all. Who has the
>>>
>right
>
>>>to tell us we're wrong?
>
>>Not wrong, really. Just not correct in the grammatical sense... :-)
>
>>Would you actually say that Hemingway wrote a book titled "For who the bell
>>tolls"?
>>But I think this whole who/whom thing has been discussed here at length
>>rather recently.
>>
>I'd quote the title as written by Hemmingway. If I had written it myself I
>might have given it the title "Who the bell rings for" ;-)
>
>Andy Eagle
>
Hemingway took it from John Donne's 'No man is an island'
an extract from a larger piece called

Meditation XVII
- Devotions upon Emergent Occasions".

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is
a piece of the Continent, a part of the maine;  if a
Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the
lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as
 if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were;
any mans death diminishes me, because I am in-
volved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to
know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

If Donne had written 'who the bell tolls for', so would've
Hemingway

David Barrow

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From: "Ed Alexander" <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.05.14 (06) [E/German]

At 05:13 AM 05/15/06 +0200, Andy Eagle wrote:

>I'd quote the title as written by Hemmingway. If I had written it myself I
>might have given it the title "Who the bell rings for" ;-)

And then Ron:

>I go along with Andy here.
>
>These days it's "whom" or "who" in objective cases, depending on dialect,
>sociolect or idiolect.  "To Whom It May Concern" is a set phrase, a
>"lexicalized chunk."  "For Who the Bell Tolls" would sound right to many
>were it not for the title of the famous novel.
>
>I wouldn't be surprised if "whom" went the way "shall" after "I" and "we"
>went -- give or take a couple of generations.

I get the impression that some of you aren't aware that Hemingway got the
title from John Donne (http://www.incompetech.com/authors/donne/bell.html),
and I quote:

If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a
promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own
were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and
therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

So Hemingway didn't really write it after all.  Much has changed in the
language since J.D., but I'm pretty sure most knowledgeable people when
asked would still finish the sentence the way Donne did:  "therefore never
send to know for whom the bell tolls;....................."

Ernest Hemingway went to a high school one township north of where I grew
up on the shore of Lake Michigan north of Chicago.  We had pretty good
English teachers back in those days, so my guess is that he would have
always written and spoken "whom".

Ed Alexander

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From: "Roger Hondshoven" <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2006.05.14 (06) [E/German]

Hi everybody,

Could we perhaps settle this argumet by saying that in the object form
'whom' is written, a bit oldfashioned language and that 'who' is spoken,
informal language?

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven

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From: "Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell" <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.05.14 (06) [E/German]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> I go along with Andy here.
>
> These days it's "whom" or "who" in objective cases, depending on dialect,
> sociolect or idiolect.  "To Whom It May Concern" is a set phrase, a
> "lexicalized chunk."  "For Who the Bell Tolls" would sound right to many
> were it not for the title of the famous novel.

As already noted, Hemingway got the title from a famous poem by John Donne.

> I wouldn't be surprised if "whom" went the way "shall" after "I" and "we"
> went -- give or take a couple of generations.

Some of us still try to use "whom". I especially make sure to use it after a
preposition. "For who the bell tolls" sounds horrible to me.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: "Arthur Jones" <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.05.14 [E]

Dear Gabriele, Jonny, Heather & Co.,

  The matter of 'who' and 'whom' is actually a fairly relevant and
important issue.
  It entails asking a question that we as a linguistic grouping usually ask
implicitly or subcutaneously: When we in our infinitely wise Unterbewusstsein
sense that something is not needed but is getting in our way --i.e., gets
under
our skin-- we start eliminating it on occasion, then 100%. So let it be with
dative or accustive suffixes.

  Over the centuries, this has led to elimination of most inflections in the
English, Dutch and Swedish languages. That they still remain to a greater
extent
in New High German is an anomaly among Germanic tongues, if you except
Icelandic
and Faroese.

  Perhaps it is a sign that Germans are becoming archaic ; - )

  The only reason I can think of that Hemingway named his moving and
disturbing
anti-war novel "For Whom the Bell Tolls" is because it is a phrase taken,
verbatim, from an equally memorable poem written in 1624 by the English
poet, John
Donne:

  "No man is an island, entire of itself; every
  man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
  If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less,
  as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy
  friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me,
  because I am involved in mankind, and therefore
  never send to know FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS; it
  tolls for thee."

  The language used by Donne was not archaic when he wrote those lines.
(Thou, thy,
thine, thee, etc.). It derives its strength partially from the fact that,
with
some five exceptions, every word is derived from Germanic sources, over
500 years
after the Norman invasion.

  There is a simple linguistic dignity present in a poem that bears a
message of
simple dignity.

  Were it not for Donne, Hemingway might have entitled his novel "Who the
Bells Ring
(clap, peal, toll) For".

  Offer: If this poem does not already exist in numerous lowlands
translations, I
would very much like to see it --with or without archaisms and old-fashioned
inflections-- in Stellingwarfs, Afrikaans, Nederlands, Vlaams, Middelsprake,
Sassisch, Missingsch, Koelsch, Boennsch, Old High German and Gothic. I
will gladly
supply the last of those.

  Met vriendelijke Groeten,

  Arthur

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