LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.05.25 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 25 May 2006 * Volume 01
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From: "Theo Homan" <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.05.24 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Heather, Ben,
>
> VOS constructions are not unknown to Germanic
> varieties, though in most
> they are now somewhat archaic and are confined to
> certain narrative styles
> (particularly in fairytales and folksongs); e.g.,
>
> German:
[...]
> Yiddish:
[...]
> Low Saxon (Low German):
[...]
> This is also very common in Slavonic varieties.

And (common and normal) in (modern) Icelandic.
vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: "First name Last name" <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.05.24 (08) [E]

Hi all,

Are VOC constructions not typical when giving instructions? (and in this
sentence!)

Here are a few examples in Afrikaans and Dutch:

Gaan sommer nou en koop ook melk.
Maak solank 'n inkopielysie vir wanneer ek winkel toe gaan.
Vee hierdie gedeelte uit en vervang met hoofletters.
Laat slapende honde met rus.
Klik met de muis op de zoekknop.
Typ hierin de naam van een firma.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: "Wesley Parish" <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2006.05.24 (04) [E]

> From: "Heather Rendall" <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
> Subject: LL-L "History" 2006.05.23 (06) [E]
>
> Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
><snip>
> [Hope this is also within the same strand.]
>
> Could I please beg for some more clarification re Arabic. I was told by a
> Welsh friend that Arabic had the 'verb first' word order. Is this not so?

It's the case with Arabic for most sentences.  It's also the case for Hebrew,
or at least for Classical/Biblical Hebrew.  I don't know enough Aramaic to
verify it there; and I don't know any Akkadian/Babylonian/Assyrian.

For what it's worth, Verb first is also the word order used in Te Reo Maori,
the Maori language, though a tense/aspect particle frequently precedes the
actual verb.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Folks,

Before we lose our linguistically less savvy members, let me just explain
that "S" stands for "subject," "V" stands for "verb," and "O" stands for
"object."  We are here talking about the typical or default sentence
structures (or word order) of various languages.

Theo:

> And (common and normal) in (modern) Icelandic.

What about Old Norse?

Wesley:

> For what it's worth, Verb first is also the word order used in Te Reo
> Maori, the Maori language

As far as I know, this applies to all Polynesian languages and is pretty
much the default in Austronesian.  In Malayo-Polynesian it seems to have
been the basic structure, and it still is in most members, from New
Zealand and Easter Island to Madagascar.  However -- and this is where
this becomes relevant to the Lowlands scene in terms of change and areal
features -- somehow SVO structure seems to have encroached into the
Malaiic group, apparently via the Malay Peninsula, possibly from what are
now Myanmar (Burma), Thailand and Southern China.  So Standard Malay and
Indonesian have SVO structure (like English and Chinese), but VOS seems to
be the original structure in all or most of the indigenous languages of
Indonesia (to where Malay was imported and where it spread inland from
seaports).  What is interesting is that for instance Old Javanese was
clearly a VOS language while Modern Javanese is a SVO language, probably
having changed under Malay influence.

It seems to me that, while no aspect of language is entirely impervious to
influences and thus to change in contact situations, phonology (sound
production rules) and syntax (word order rules) are most "vulnerable" in
this regard.  (I am not sure if one of them is more so than the other.) 
Next would be lexical morphology (as seen for instance in English use of
Romance affixes like "pre-" and "-ness").  Least "vulnerable" is
grammatical morphology.  Of course, lexical changes in contact situations
are always likely and can be extensive.  But the lexicon of a language is
not a system (while phonology, syntax and morphology *are* systems); it is
a large collection or inventory, so to speak, and therefore it takes a lot
to impact it noticeably.  It is my belief that because of this we find
lots of areal features shared by unrelated languages: phonology and syntax
change (assimilate) while morphology and lexicon may be impacted little or
not at all.  In the case of Eurasia and Northern Africa this is in many
cases proven by non-linguistic data, especially by historiographies.  In
other parts of the world such external data are scarce or absent, or they
are dismissed as unreliable or irrelevant (e.g., oral histories and
literatures).  So we find interesting cases of areal features among
unrelated languages and can only hypothesize as to what may have caused
these.

Elsie:

> Are VOC constructions not typical when giving instructions?
> (and in this sentence!)

Which brings up another interesting thing.  Theoretically speaking, you
could claim that in imperative expressions (which are what we are talking
about here) the subject is omitted, is implied, in other words, that the
slot for the subject is blank; e.g.,

> Laat slapende honde met rus.
("Let sleeping dogs with rest.")
Let sleeping dogs lie!

So you could postulate that the underlying structure is ...

[Jij/Julle] laat slapende honde met rus! (SVO)

... or ...

Laat [jij/julle] slapende honde met rus! (VSO)

Which one is it?

Look at Modern English,  Is it ...

Let [you] sleeping dogs lie! (VSO)

... or ...

[You] let sleeping dongs lie! (SVO)?

I would venture to guess it is the latter, because you can say things like
...

You get out of here!
You kids do your homework now, and you, Paul, help me with the laundry!
You stop right there, young lady!

Unless you argue that these are cases of subject topicalization, you would
have to conclude that Modern English imperative structure is SVO.

If so, this would represent a change, for in Middle English we still have
proof of VSO; e.g., ...

Astontow, rough felawe!
("Stand-thou, rough fellow")
Stop (right (t)here), low-life!

(_astontow_ < _a-stond thow, literally "a-stand thou")

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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