LL-L "Language acquisition" 2006.05.30 (01) [E]

Tue May 30 15:34:07 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 30 May 2006 * Volume 01
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From: "Wesley Parish" <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Language acquisition" 2006.05.29 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language acquisition
>
> Hi, Sandy!
>
> Great to hear from you, as always.
>
> My general comment (a.k.a. _Senf dazu_, German for "mustard added") on what
> you wrote above is something along the lines of "Amen!" or "Hear, hear!"
> (a.k.a. "Here, here!" ;-) )
>
> Hawaiian, or any other Polynesian language for that matter, is anything but
>> easy to learn well.  It abounds with "unexpected" and "flowery" idiomatic
> expressions.  Wesley will probably confirm the same regarding Maori.  In

That's right.  Te Reo Maori is just as difficult a language to master as any
other.  People too often mistake "grammar" with morphology, without noticing
that syntax is equally part of grammar as well - so they say that Sanskrt and
Georgian, to throw two examples into the discussion, are "difficult".  But
most children, if exposed to either as their first language, will chatter
away quite happily (and unstoppably) in those languages by age three.

Perhaps the best way to get an idea of the complexity of any language's
idiom,
is to take a look at its proverbs.  Like this one in Maori:
Kei runga te korero, kei raro te rahurahu
Up above, the talking, down below, the meddling
It's a less-than-complementary proverbal description of one particular tribe.
And then there's:
Moumou kai, moumou taonga, moumou tangata ki te po
wasteful of food, wasteful of treasures/resources, wasteful of men to death
(in battle)
That's yet another tribe, and that is a highly respectful summation of their
prowess.

And it uses none of the ordinary genitive markers ( a or o ), treating either
moumou as an adjective (atypical), or the word following (kai, taonga,
tangata) as adjectives.  You can't find that described in any Maori textbook
I've come across, yet it is a proverb in current use.
> Polynesian in general, and perhaps in Malayo-Polynesian within an even
> wider context, "turning a phrase" is an expression to be taken literally.
> It is a traditional art form, especially in speech making or oratory, which
> has a very, very important role in traditional Polynesian cultures.  Good
> speakers are extremely highly regarded and tend to advance to community
> leader positions.
>
> Your comment about Malay is spot on.  The same goes for Indonesian within a
> wider context, being really another group of Malay varieties with local
> substrates.  These languages are "enticingly and misleadingly easy" at
> first glance, which is also one of the reasons why Australian students that
> have to choose an Asian foreign language in addition to a European one,
> tend to choose Malay or Indonesian.  These languages are (nowadays) written
> with the Roman alphabet (without "special" letters), are fairly easy to
> pronounce for speakers of European languages, and it is easy and fast to
> acquire a working knowledge that qualifies as allowing you "to get around."
>  This does not mean that you are well ahead in the language.  I never
> studied Indonesian but did study Malay (_Bahasa Malaysia_) as a part of my
> Southeast Asian studies minor in Australia, and I was able to "survive"
> while traveling around in Malaysia and Indonesia (quickly picking up a
> bunch Indonesianism, having no problems with Dutch loanwords).  I even
> visited many villages in which no one spoke English or Dutch.  But when the
> village chiefs made long speeches to welcome me I often understood next to
> nothing.

The book "Teach Yourself Samoan" (first TY series), has a long and convoluted
speech in the latter part to prepare the student.  I suspect, if Alcuin
had've been expected to prepare a Teach Yourself Old Saxon for Carlos the
Butcher, he would've put the speeches very early on in the book.  (Indeed, to
judge from some of the earlier incidents recorded in the Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle - Cynewulf and Cyneheard, public speaking was one of the things
expected from your average tribal citizen.)  Public speaking is one of the
major tests of language comprehension that isn't part of most present-day
curricula. :(
>
> I'm afraid that the reputation of a language being easy or difficult to
> acquire tends to be base upon cursory assessment at first glance, and that
> this is assessment will inevitably turn out to be wrong in one way or
> another.  As you said, Sandy, any mature language is complex in one way or
> another.  If the complexity does not hit you at the beginning it will do so
> sometime later, on a different level.
>
> Why -- and here we return to the Lowlands -- this applies within the
> context of learning a closely related language as well!  Being able to more
> or less understand such a language without having studied it is another
> case of "enticingly easy," or better to say "misleadingly easy" ... *at
> first*. Understanding is one thing; using it well is another.  I run into
> this with Frisian, Afrikaans, Dutch and Scots, as you all know.  To learn
> these well, I'd really have to sit down and study them "solidly," not just
> dabble in them.

Well, put it like this, I find most Niedersassisch (Plattduutsch) texts I
come
across, easier to understand than either German or Dutch.  Both spelling
systems still turn up a language that looks enough like a form of English
that I can pick up the outline of what is being discussed.  The instant you
ask me about particular sentences, etc, I would be lost.

Wesley Parish

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language acquisition

Thanks, Wes.  I knew this would resonate with you.

One of these days I'll promote you to Lowlands Commissioner for New
Zealand or even all of Oceania.  The downside of that is that you'd have
to round up a speaker of Maori (and perhaps also of Moriori, Tongan,
Rarotongan, etc.) to facilitate an audio file (and translations) for the
anniversary presentation (which has a Maori translation already: ).

> I suspect, if Alcuin
> had've been expected to prepare a Teach Yourself Old Saxon for Carlos the
> Butcher, he would've put the speeches very early on in the book. 
(Indeed, > to
> judge from some of the earlier incidents recorded in the Anglo-Saxon
> Chronicle - Cynewulf and Cyneheard, public speaking was one of the things
> expected from your average tribal citizen.)  Public speaking is one of the
> major tests of language comprehension that isn't part of most present-day
> curricula. :(

:D Carlos the Butcher! You little Saxon agitator, you!

> Niedersassisch (Plattduutsch)

Hmmm .... Nice mixture of German _NiedersÃ¤chsisch_ and Low Saxon
_Neddersassisch_!

Wes, I think you have an easier time with it because you're an English
speaker and also know German.  (You do, don't you?)

It is interesting that I have a far easier time reading Middle and Early
Modern Scots than reading many texts written in some of today's Scots
dialects.  I assume it's because Middle and Early Modern Scots are more
closely related to Middle and Early Modern English, with which I am fairly
familiar (and they are relatively easy to read for someone who has Modern
English, Low Saxon and German as a combination).  Part of this may be due
to many Scots writers of the past tending to "err" on the side of
(pompous) English.

For instance, Gavin Douglas's translation of Virgil:

<...>
   Stra for this ignorant blabring imperfyte
   Beside thi polyte termis redemyte;
   And no the les with support and correctioun,
   For naturall luife and freindfull affectioun
   Quhilkis I beir to thi werkis and endyte,
   Althocht, God wait, I knaw tharin full lyte,
   And that thi facund sentence mycht be song
   In our langage als weill as Latyne tong.
   Alswele, na, na, impossible war, per de,
<...>

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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