LL-L "Etymology" 2007.12.01 (06) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 December 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.11.29 (03) [E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com> >
>
> Now that you pointed out a possible connection with the verb /butjer-/
> /(rüm-)butjern/ it brings to mind the noun /but/ (/Butt/ ) in the
> sense of 'boot', which we also use in Missingsch and in
> Miussingsch-colored German, such as /Gummibutten/ for 'rubber boots',
> 'wellingtons'. Right now I can't find this word in any dictionary.
> This makes me wonder if it's a Hamburg-specific word, if it began as
> an English loan, and if in the sense of 'little Hamburg boy' it was
> inspired by this locally specific word. So it's this comical image of
> a little boy that stomps about with his large boots on ( /lütt(j)en
> jung mit grote butten///butjes an/), in other words / 'n lütten
> butjer/ that "butjers" about. This makes so much more sense to me!
I am not under the impression, these two words are related. It's
'Botten' in our dialect (so not Hamburg-specific) and I guess it is
related to 'boot', but not by loaning, but from the old days, when the
two languages were one. 'Buttjer' for me sounds more onomatopoetic, a
bit like 'wutschen'.

Marcus Buck

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moin, Marcus!

You wrote:

It's
'Botten' in our dialect (so not Hamburg-specific) and I guess it is
related to 'boot', but not by loaning, but from the old days, when the
two languages were one.

Maybe so, though this doesn't seem to be attested.

English "boot" entered at the Middle English stage and came from Old French,
according to the *Oxford English Dictionary*:

[ME. *bote*, a. OF. *bote* (mod.F. *botte*), corresp. to Pr., Sp., Pg. *bota
*, med.L. *botta*, *bota*, of uncertain origin.
  Identified by Diez, Littré, etc. with F. *boute* (also, in mod.F., *botte*)
butt, cask, leathern vessel; but 'the phonology of the two words in OF.
shows that they are quite distinct' (P. Meyer). In med.L. also
*butta*'butt' and
*botta* 'boot' are never confounded, though *bota* is frequent as a by-form
of both, which has probably misled etymologists.]

"Boot" in the old languages:

   - Old Saxon: *hosa,* (laced) *snōrling*
   - Old English: ?
   - Old Frisian: ?
   - Old Low Franconian: ?
   - Old German: *fuozsok*, *kalizia*, *kalisa*, (laced) *snerahiling*, *
   snuorihhiling*

But ... hold on to your hat! ...*
*

   - Old Norse: *styffill*, *b**ō**ti*

But how old is this "Old" Norse? 14th or 14th century when English and Saxon
had entered their "Middle ..." stages?

Middle Saxon and Middle Dutch have *stevel*, Middle German *stival *and *
stivel*, Old German *stival*, all of which are supposed to come from one
Romance language or other; cf. Old French *estivel*, Italian *stivale*,
archaic Spanish *estival*. And yet ... whenever we get this *est...* in
French, Occitanian and Iberian Romance we need to consider the possibility
of it being a Germanic loan beginning with *st...* And there *is* Old Norse
*styffal *and Old German *stival*, after all.

Mysteries continue ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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