LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.05 (04) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 05 February 2007 - Volume 04

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.04 (07) [E.German]

> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.04 (02) [E/German]
>
> Karl-Heinz,
>
> don't you remember: you said:
>  >  Karl-Heinz wrote:
>  > >For those who are learning Standard-German: You have the choice
> between
>
>  > >2. a dative construction: „dem Vogel seine Hochzeit"
>
> So I only objected because you called this "standard German", which it is
> definitely not. Of course it is used in plenty of German dialects, but
> that's a different matter entirely.

You are so fixed on written language. I think that is typical for Northern
Germans to make actually no difference between written and spoken language.
For us Southerners you sort of sound like talking books.

> >"Geht hin nach Hannover, in die Hauptstadt der angeblichen Niedersachsen.
> >Ihr werdet dort blühende Landschaften erleben, in der nicht Plattdeutsch
> >oder ein schlechtes Missingsch gesprochen wird, sondern ein perfektes
> >Hochdeutsch aus der Konserve."
>
> Excuse me, but - what a load of rubbish! You've never been to Hannover,
> have
> you?

I was there twice.

It doesn't even feature "blühende Landschaften", it's an industrial
> city and was quickly cobbled together again after being almost completely
> destroyed in WWII.

Yes, that is why a lot of towns in Germany look pretty the same, built up
after the war, they all seem to have had the same architect. I remember that
in the center of Hannover they placed some "Fachwerkhäuser" from elsewhere
in the City or the countryside around, so you can get picture, how this town
was before the war, at least a little.
>
> Here's a standard joke from Hannover, to provide some food for thought.
>
> Karl-Heinz geht - natürlich mit seinem Dackel - in Hannover in den
> Fischladen und fragt die Verkäuferin: "Haben Sie Aale?"
> Verkäuferin: "Naan, ich höbe Zaat!"

I have an idea, but I'm not totally through it now.

> By the way, my father was from Hannover, and he spoke Platt as well as the
> local dialect.

I've heard that there are some LS speakers even in Hannover. I was in
Hildesheim in the 1980s and they proudly told us that Hildesheim is
"dialektfrei" whereas Hannover is not  (totally). But you can't tell me that
LS/Low German "blüht" in Hannover and the greater part of the country around
it, so I wrote "…angebliche(n) Niedersachsen".

> Anyway, the genitive is (luckily, because it's beautiful!) quite commonly
> used in spoken High German, among young and old. There just isn't another
> way of saying "der Gebrauch des Genitivs".
>
Ich sage ja gar nicht, dass der Genitiv hässlich ist, ganz im Gegenteil,
aber ich plädiere doch schon auf für den Dativ, warum soll man ihn in der
Standardsprache nicht verwenden, warum muss er als Dialekt und inferior
abgetan werden? Das ist doch jedenfalls sprachsoziologisch bedenklich,
nicht? To say: Dative is lower class and genitive upper class.

> >Und deshalb ist die Hochdeutsche Sprache u.a. so pseudo-logisch und
> eindeutig,
> >sodass Wortspiele nur eingeschränkt möglich sind. Ich glaube Gabriele,
> du
> hast ja
> >auch einmal sinngemäß geschrieben: puns work better in English than in
> Dutch,
> >but in German they don't work at all.
>
> Oh no, you got that all wrong! I live for puns in any language, including,
> of course, my native one. Here's a limerick I wrote, to illustrate this:
>
> "Ein Bahnhofsvorsteher in Celle
> war leider nicht sonderlich helle.
> Er war frisch getraut
> und trug seine Braut
> Am Abstellgleis über die Schwelle."
>
> What I was talking about at the time were cryptic crosswords, a different
> matter altogether. There are many German words that have double meanings,
> but in this specific setting, lots of three- and four-letter-words are
> required.

Aha, ok, I see, so you find that German has not enough three- and
four-letter-words.

> Well, nobody is forcing you to speak High German if you don't like it, but
> the fact remains that it is still the standard, and any construction such
> as
> "dem Karl-Heinz sein geliebter Dativ" is not! :-)
>
Ok, but for me that is also good Standard German as is „Karls geliebter
Dativ". Ich finde übrigens, dass in diesem Fall der Dativ auch geschrieben
attraktiver ist, aber das ist Geschmacksache.

Küss' die Hand gnä' Frau

Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Karl-Heinz & Gabriele:

>2. a dative construction: „dem Vogel seine Hochzeit"

Niemand gönnte dem Vogel seine Hochzeit.

;-)

Reinhard/Ron
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