LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.03.06 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 06 March 2007 - Volume 04

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.03.04 (08) [E]

From: Peter Snepvangers < snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: LL - L Language Translation would anyone know the meaning of the
following words;
bevestigingsoorkonde (I think it means fixing something??)
het patronaatsrecht (the patron??)
de abdij van Tongerlo (the ?? from Tongeres)
was gelegen in (was ?? in)

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

Hi, Pete!

Since at the moment you can't know if this lot will respond, I'll give you
the quick and dirty for now.

bevestigingsoorkonde

German speakers find a false friend here.  Dutch bevestiging is not the same
as German Befestigung 'fortification'.  Bevestiging means something related,
albeit seemingly rather different: 'affirmation', 'avouchment', 'assent',
'consent', and oorkonde means 'document'.  So what we seem to have here is
some sort of contract.
 patronaatsrecht

patronaat 'sponsorship'
recht 'right'

de abdij van Tongerlo

abdij 'monastery', 'convent', 'church ruled by such' (thus a community ruled
by an abbot or abbess)

was gelegen in

'was situated in'
past participial of liggen 'to lie', 'to be situated'

And harking back to your earlier posting ... (tsk-tsk)

I have decided to get off the lurking chair and ask for some assistance. As
many would know my family name is Snepvangers. The Snep part of this name
refers to the bird called snipe or snip in Dutch. The vangers I presume

refers to Catchers from the Dutch vangen. I have been researching my family
tree and have so far traced back to the 1480's into North Brabant near
Zundert, Breda, Rijsbergen, Rucphen etc. I have been provided with

information from a genealogist of name variations of the Snepvangers name in
the 1300's. I presume these would be Brabants or medieval Dutch. I have also
been forwarded some information written in "Thiois" which I think is old

Dietsch. Could anyone with knowledge of oude Brabants provide me with
spellings of how the Snepvangers name may have been written, or how it may
have been written by sound. Some of the variations are as simple as van de

Snepvangers, van Snepvangers, van Snepveghem, van Sneveghem etc. Any
assistance would be greatly appreciated. By the way, a quick read in this
old language is quite easily understood and pleasant to me.

I can't give you all the answers you need, but I can give you the following:


Personally, I don't expect ther4e to be too much dialectical variation of
this particular name (which I assume to have rather limited geographical
spread).

If your name did occur in the corresponding areas, I would expect the
following (all hypothetical):

Northern Low Saxon: *Snepp(en)fanger (Snep(pen)vanger) or *Snipp(en)fanger
(Snip(pen)vanger)
Modern German: *Schnepfenfänger

Old L. Frank.: *Snip(pan)fengere(-s)
Old Saxon: *Snip(pa(n))fahari, perhaps *Fugolori from fugolon 'to catch
birds'
Old English: *Snītefang, *Snītefangenend, *Pūrfang, *Pūrfangenend,
     more likely, however, *Fuglia (> Fowler) from fuglian 'to catch birds'
     (Middle English seems to have borrowed snīpe from Scandinavian *sn īpa)
Old Norse: *Snīpafangari, more likely *Fyglari from fygla 'to catch birds'
Old German: *Snepfanfāhāri, or Fogalari (attested as 'bird catcher',
'fowler')
Gothic: *Snippanuta

I can't help you with Frisian.
Anyway, I expect that this is barely marginal to your research.
Best of luck with it!
And leave them poor birdies alone!

Reinhard/Ron

Hey Reinhard,
Thank You for all your assistance once again.
The old German looks interesting, I thought it might have been something
like schnepf....
It seems the snip variation is quite common although it is quite unusual to
see the snite form in old English, I wonder where that came from.
Thanks,
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au
Sydney Australia

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.03.05 (08) [E]

From: MWI  <wintzermichel at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.03.04 (08) [E]

bevestigingsoorkonde (I think it means fixing something??)
literally "confirming document"
het patronaatsrecht (the patron??)
Literally "the law of patronage
de abdij van Tongerlo (the ?? from Tongeres)
abdij van = abbey of
was gelegen in (was ?? in)
was situated
Greetings Mike Wintzer

From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com >
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.03.04 (08) [E]
'Oorkonde' is a rather archaic word meaning  "deed,document".
'Bevestiging' = "confirmation". Both words together then mean something like
a "deed confirming (....)"
'Patronaatsrecht' = "the right to recommend, nominate members of the clergy
for the office of priesthood".
'Abdij van Tongerlo' = " the Abbey of Tongerlo", a village in the province
of Antwerp, somewhat halfway between Diest and Herentals. Not to be
confounded with Tongeren, a town in East-Limburg.
Regards,
Roger Hondshoven
Dag Roger and Mike,
thanks for your help here. Roger, I have been to Tongeren in East Limburg
about 20 years ago and thought this was where the abbey must have been. You
can't beat good local knowledge. I found Diest on a map now so I have a
general idea of where it is (slightly north west of Tongeren). I have been
reading through the provincial archives of West Brabant, fantastic stuff. I
am very lucky to have access to this as it gives me another perspective on
the history and culture of my ancestors. Amazing to see the names of all
those families who are related sprinkled through the pages.
Dank U Wel Roger and Mike
Regards
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au
Sydney Australia
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