LL-L "Etymology" 2007.03.08 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 08 March 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Marcel Bas <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.03.07 (02) [A/E]

Hi Vlad!

Long time no see!

I promised to look up the Russian word _skot_  in etomological dictionaries.
I have two etymological dictionaries for Russian:

"Russian Etymological Dictionary" by Terence Wade (1996) and
"Istoriko-etimologicheskij slovar'" by Pavel Chernykh (1999).

Wade says that Russian _skot_ corresponds to Germanic *skatta- (originally
'cattle'). And, Elsie, he also mentions English _scot-free_ 'unpunished',
from _scot_ 'payment, contribution'. He further adds that Germanic may have
borrowed from Slavonic given that 'treasure' is more abstract than 'cattle'
(the semantic progression being 'cattle', then 'property', then 'money') and
thus probably a later development. He says that on the other hand, there
exist ancient words with monetary connotations (e.g. Old Icelandic _skattr_
'tax', Gothic _skatts 'coin, money', Old High German _skaz_  'coin,
property'). The Slavonic and Germanic words may therefore derive from a
third source.

Chernykh shows that the same word exists in Czechian, Polish, Upper Sorbian,
Old Russian and that it must have existed in ancient SLavonic (he does not
mention Southern Slavonic languages, though). He gives a corresponding Old
Germanic *skatta-  and some Gothic and High German, but no derivations.

The rounding in skot < skat is interesting. I wonder if Russian
_skat_ 'ray(fish)' is also a loanword.

Best regards,

Marcel.

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From: "JRodenburg at aol.com" <JRodenburg at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.03.06 (06) [E]

Reinhard wrote:

>Whether or not that etymology is correct I do not know.  However, Arthur,
what you told us tallies with Old Saxon ... sort of ...:

>skat (~ skatt) : coin, money, treasure, estate >

>fehuskat : ("livestock ...") coin, money
>hôvidskat : ("head ...") polltax
>mundskat : ("mouth ...") protection
>siluvarskat : ("silver ...") silver coin
weroldskat : ("world ...") worldly goods
>winskat : ("wine ...") wine tax

>However ... nota benissime ...

>skot : tax

>Derived from Old English scot, "scot" (~ "shot" < sceot ) in this sense is
still officially an English word, albeit a rather archaic one; e.g.,

And how would this relate to the popular German card game Skat?

Viele Grüße aus Illinois
John Rodenburg
Rodenburg (Tarmstedt, Amt Rotenburg, Hannover)
Brunkhorst (Stemmen, Amt Rotenburg, Hannover)
Werner (Langen, Hesse-Darmstadt),
Steinke (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Krause (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Schröder (Warsow, Mecklenburg-Schwerin),
Meyer (Eitzendorf, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Hinkeldey (Wechold, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Zum Mallen (Schierholz, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Röhrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Marcel:

> The rounding in skot < skat is interesting.

If it were a Scandinavian loan, this might be explained as Old Swedish, like
Modern Norwegian and Dutch, having had a short back /a/ ([Q]) that was
perceived as [O] by Russians.  This can be seen, for instance, in borrowed
names such as Ольга (Ol'ga) from proto-Norse *Hailaga (> Helga), as opposed
to Old Norwegian and Old Icelandic heylag 'holy', 'blessed'.  The same goes
for the masculine counterpart Олег (Oleg), from *Hailgagi (> Helgi).

> I wonder if Russian _skat_ 'ray(fish)' is also a loanword.

You mean as in English "skate"?  The English word is supposed to have been
borrowed from Old Norse (skata), and the origin of that is unknown.

John:

> And how would this relate to the popular German card game Skat?

This Skat has a long vowel ([ska:t]), unlike the words we have been talking
about.  (As you probably know, German orthography has a haphazard system of
distinguishing long and short vowels.)

The card game Skat is believed to have originated in Thuringia, and it is
very popular throughout Germany, Polish Silesia and neighboring regions
under German influence, having developed slightly different rules among
German Americans.  The general belief is that the name comes from a Romance
language (e.g. Italian scartare, French écarter 'to put aside').

Greetings from (today) sunny and balmy California!

Reinhard/Ron
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