LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (01) [E/S]

[Lowlands-L List]

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March 2007 - Volume 01

 ========================================================================

From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]

Thar's aye sadness wheneyr a mither tongue dees. Yea the land o the leel's
aye fair, but ye ken, aa canna view the wab pages o a tongue that's nar the
end o its time, for as Jonny did proclaim, one less method o talkin remains.

Ok, probably the worst Scots you've ever seen, but please try to help if
possible!
Ben

----------

From: "Isaac M. Davis" <isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]

Sandy,

A hae thocht this masel, aboot Scots. As A hae said afore, A'm a student o
the Irish leid, an A read aboot the tribbles wi that leid, an think tae
masel that Scots is lucky, ye micht weel say, that the leid competin wi it
is sae close kin. As it is, there's a braid spectrum o leid varieties, some
that ye coud cry English, some that are clear Scots, an a muckle o ithers,
neither fish nor fowl. Gin the braidest o the braid (weel, laist English o
the lot) dee oot, there's still mair kinds o speech that isna quite English.
Gin ye arena speakin Irish, ye're speakin English. No spectrum, no varieties
in between.

I've thought this myself, about Scots. As I've said before, I'm a student of
the Irish language, and I read about the troubles with that language, and
think to myself that Scots is lucky, you might say, that the language
competing with it is so closely related. As it is, there's a broad spectrum
of language varieties, some that you could call English, some that are clear
Scots, and a lot of othothers, neither fish nor fowl. If the broadest of the
broad (well, the least English of the lot) die out, there's still more kinds
of speech that aren't quite English. If you aren't speaking Irish, you're
speaking English. No spectrum, no varieties in between.

Isaac M. Davis

-- 

Westron wynd, when wilt thou blow
The smalle rain down can rain
Christ yf my love were in my arms
And I yn my bed again

----------

From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language maintenance

Hi, Pete!

Thanks for the more than 2 cents' worth!  (No, disclaimers needed. Everybody
on the List gets to "chirp" in.)

Everything you said makes total sense to me.  But I would like to add, or
repeat, what I believe lies at the bottom of it all.  No, it ain't
"Europe-bashing," just observations from life memories and from history
reading.

As far as I can tell, it is only now that Europe has started to grow out of
the old mode of thinking, has truly, though still haltingly, begun to
abandon the old ideal of one country coinciding with one ethnicity, one
religion and one language -- in other words, the ideal of "country =
tribe."

Until recently, minorities were considered flies in the ointment, much like
resident foreigners.  If they could not be treated like foreigners because
their ancestry was somewhere else, no matter how long ago (such as Jews
before grudgingly granting them citizenship), then they had to be made into
members of the tribe.  An important part of this was making them use the
same language as the tribe, not only in public but altogether, and this was
considered an essential part of acculturation.  The easiest way of
accomplishing this was to outlaw their languages (which still happened in
the recent past, and Australia and North America took this one step farther
in the early part of the 20th century by sending indigenous children away
from their people to English-only boarding schools).  The surest albeit
slower way is to ban their languages from schools.  Of great advantage to
this cause is it if a minority language is fairly closely related to the
Kultursprache of the country/tribe.  In this case you can declare that it is
merely a dialect (group) of the Kultursprache, and "dialect" comes with the
flags "local color" and "inferior."  Not only do you then not have to
provide it with special consideration and funding, but you also instill in
the speakers themselves what amounts to a linguistic inferiority complex, a
shame complex, so that eventually the speakers themselves will participate
in the process of eliminating the language, such as elders not teaching it
to the offspring, and youngsters at some point in their lives refusing to
continue using the language even in their homes.  (After all, teenagers want
to be like their perceived peers.)

Hello Reinhard and Lowlanderen,

I know this is tending to a new topic but I thought this article by our
Andrys Onsman adds further to our discussion of the complexities of
destruction of the perceived worth, value or truism of language by concious
or unconcious means. We in Australia have a national learned (taught in
school) history regarding the "last aborigines in Tasmania" focused on the
life and death of a woman called Trugannini. It has suited the purpose of
the "establishment" to quote the history and the quoted soon becomes
accepted as the actual factual history. Andrys has succinctly captured how
this true history can be "captured" and espoused in its wrong context
continually by people in good faith who actually believe the data when it is
recorded in bona fide sources such as Encyclopedia Brittanica.
http://www.islandmag.com/96/article.html
I have previously brought up the issue regarding plats and Limburgs and the
treatment and discription afforded by renowned authors. In Australia we have
a book written by Bruce Donaldson (Routledge Grammars) called Dutch, a
comprehensive grammar, printed in 1998 isbn 0-415-15418-9 (hbk). At the time
Bruce lectured in Dutch and German in the department of Germanic Studies and
Russian, University of Melbourne, Australia.
I quote now from the preface page 10 (x). "If at any stage I have mentioned
spoken forms which are not acceptable in the writing, or written forms which
are not usual in the spoken language, this has been either clearly stated in
each instance or the abbreviations 'coll' for colloqial, 'arch' for archaic
or 'lit' for literary/formal have been used. On occasions I use the Dutch
word 'plat' in the English text to describe phenomena, as it is commonly
used in Holland and has no direct equivalent in English: if a structure is
described as 'plat' it is considered sub standard or stigmatised and is thus
better avoided by the learner - spoken Dutch, like spoken British English in
particular, is a language that commonly betrays one's regional and social
origins!"

Well, well well now Mr Donaldson!!!!!!!
 If we all believed this rubbish we accept qwatsch and have no pride in our
heritage and languages. Where are the learned scholars who rebut this "state
language uber alles" type of tripe in published books and other media. At
least then when people refer to these "tomes of truth" there could be
references available to offer an alternative truth. This in my opinion is
why minority languages have continually suffered. They do not possess that
elite group of "white knights" who are always willingly to defend the
honour. It seems we have only ourselves to blame as we have allowed the
systemic reduction of the relevance of our languages without challenge. My
father spoke at least 8 languages fluently and many others to a lesser
degree. He used to say jokingly the difference between a language and a
dialect is basically that the dialect couldn't afford an army. I have noted
the use of the word sexiness used regarding minority languages, the
connotation being making it sexy will increase its popularity. This is
probably true and will help. The reality is the language should be available
in many modern formats, saturated in the market. Dictionaries referenced
across many languages, reading material old and modern, sound files, videos,
name dropping of peers or famous people etc. I personally believe the most
important ingredient is pride in talking the lingo and stating in public YES
we speak Low Saxon (or whatever) at home. I f you are asked why just say
Because we like it and also because we can.
We have many aboriginal languages in Australia that have been really
marginalised yet we are now getting more and more speakers in these
languages. Even old Dutch / Aussie farts like me can now distinguish Koori
from Murri and Nunga. This is only because there has been shift in pride by
the younger indidgenous people who have taken pride in their heritage and
are insisting at all times and across all spheres that we Aussies
acknowledge the language of the place names and such used by the local
people and in their unique local language. And good on em.
Regards
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au
Sydney

•

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20070323/67289439/attachment.htm>