LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  12 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]

R/R wrote:
> Of course, it brings to mind -s in Latvian men's names (e.g., Filips,
> Fritsis, Gabriels, Jazeps, Juris, Kristaps, Ludvigs, Mihails, Mikelis,
> Pavils, Rihards, Toms, Vilhelms, Vilis). However, this is the equivalent
of
> Lithuanian -as, -is and -us (Ąžuolas, Juozapas, Virtautas, Jurgis, Herkus)
> which appears to be related to (though not derived from) Greek -os and
Latin
> -us. I hardly think this could develop into a suffix that expresses
> affection.

Yes, Latvian -s and Lithuanian -(V)s are simple the reflexes of the
Indo-European masculine singular nominative case ending. Both
langauges have a separate vocative ending (though NOT in the plural,
nor in the 2nd declension -- the most common feminine type). BUT in
modern converstaional usage the nominative is often found in place of
the vocative (OR, like Slavic Russian which long ago lost its vocative
case, in Latvian anyway, a NEW vocative, equal to the stem without ANY
ending, is found.)

Whether there has been enough Baltic language influence on (American)
English for this to be a plausible "source" of the English
affectionate diminutives or not is a real question though.

On a more speculative level, I would propose that we perhaps have here
a PLURAL, though this goes AGAINST what we usually see of the plural
being coopted into expressing a POLITE singular (tu vs vous, thou vs
you, ты vs Вы, etc). Perhaps the truncated stem (Bab < Barbara) was
seen as TOO familiar and so a POLITE plural ending was addedd (Bab+s >
Babs)? PURE specualtion on my part (and the only real-language
analogous example I have of a plural being used as an affectionate
dimiutive is RUSSIAN, where ALL male diminutives have a feminine
ending (viz my name below) ... which was in (proto)-Indo-European the
collective plural ending.

--
MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक

================

Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India

++++++++++++++++

माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )

++++++++++++++++

茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

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From: karlrein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E

It occurs to me that Pops --  one's father, or addressing an older man --
was common in New York City at least sixty years ago.  So I have always
associated 'Phoebs' <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_> in
Friends as a New York phenomenon, despite
Babs<?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>and the like.
But reading your discussion, it suddenly dawned on me that
there was Moms Mabley <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>, who
died years ago, already elderly.  For the younger readers,  may I explain
that she was a lovable nightclub entertainer known for her foul language.

Karl [Reinhardt]

From: R. F <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>. Hahn <
sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

[snip]

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as
"Jakes<?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>."
It was quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression
of what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

...Reinhard <?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=ymdfwq781tpu#116345af67ec7a72_>/Ron

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

diederik has a long i, but in didi it's short (thus dids)
don't confuse it with the cartoon figure Deedee;) (dexter's lab)

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
[...]
> In Middle Saxon and North Frisian
> it does not necessarily express the feminine; e.g.
> MS
> *bedrygster*'deceiver', NF
> *grewster* 'grave-digger', *wäwster *'weaver'.]
[...]
> Reinhard/Ron

Ron,

Traces of '...ster' not necessarily expressing the
feminine are still to be found in the North of the
Netherlands.
E.g. a 'Damster' is someone of Appingedam; but someone
from elsewhere in the Netherlands will think it is
about a woman of Appingedam.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (07) [E]

From wim verdoold wkv at home.nl zwolle city netherrlands

Hi,  about an s ending in names

Looking at my own name (willem)

  In Germanic times it was written willhelmuZ in west Germanic and
willhelmuR in north Germanic,  the name HelmR and HelmZ also existed,  here
in the east of the Nethrlands there are still first names like Helms and
Mans , the s in names like that could come from the old germaic Z ending  in
Helms ( Helmus) it does.

Hope this added something to the subject.

Wim [Verdoold]

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.11 (06) [E]
Rein schreef:

As we all know, English has two frequently used suffixes *-s* (/-z/):

  1. Plural marker: e.g., The Walton*s* have two son*s* and three
  daughter*s*.
  2. Genitive marker: e.g., The Walton*s'* (/-z-z/) children*'**s *names
  are somewhat odd, owing to Mr. Walton*'s *obsession with Shakespear*'s
  *plays.

However, there appears to be a third, albeit lesser-used one.

The other day I caught myself addressing my friend Jake as "Jakes." It was
quite spontaneous, not at all planned. I believe it was an expression of
what I would call "casual affection." There was no noticeable reaction on
Jake's part, so I assume it was at least acceptable to him (unless he was
being overly generous).

This made me think about *-s* (/-z/) as ... let's say a "marker of
endearment."

I don't know much about English or American, but a kind of affectional S
is used in Dutch, too.

E.g. my wife Barbara is called "Babs" as well. Mamma and Pappa are
also "Mams" and "Paps".
And I once mentioned here before the Brabantish S with proper names etc.:

ik gao naor Omas  < Oma      =  I go to grantma
da is veur Wilmas < Wilma    =  that is for Wilma
die komt van Tonnies< Tonnie =  he/she 's coming from Tonnie

Groeten
Ingmars

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks a lot, guys.

This is getting interesting. One of them golden Lowlands moments? (As though
not every moment on LL-L is a golden moment, huh?)

OK. I'm beginning to wonder if this is an piece of Dutch heritage in
American English.

Ingmar, you gave three examples

ik gao naor Omas  < Oma      =  I go to grantma
da is veur Wilmas < Wilma    =  that is for Wilma
die komt van Tonnies< Tonnie =  he/she 's coming from Tonnie

If it weren't for the second one (provided that it really means "for Wilma"
rather than "for Wilma's place/family"), this *-s* could have been seen as a
genitive marker, as in English:

I'm going to Grandma's. (= Grandma's place)
He/she's coming from Tony's. (= Tony's place)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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