LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.13 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  13 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]

From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net >
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (01) [E]

I'm not convinced this –s is an American thing. Don't the British refer to
Prince William as Wills? I've never heard anyone in the US call a William
"Wills". I am familiar with Babs and Pops, though.

And of course football (soccer to Americans) star David Beckham is usually
"Becks" to the media. The "-s" form is pretty common in England at least,
though there seems to be no rule as to how or when it seems "right". Soccer
star Wayne Rooney is "Roo", not "Roons" or "Waynes" for example.  I suppose
somebody just uses a form, and it sticks, or it doesn't.

Paul Finlow-Bates

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.12 (08) [E]

Ron asked: Hezza, Babs from Margaret? You kiddin' me? Are you sure this
happened outside your family as well?

Well 'Polly' is always explained as a diminutive of Mary ( from Molly?) and
Peggy is also an affectionate / diminutive of Margaret. If you can get Betsy
from Elizabeth, I don't see why Margaret can't give you Babs.

Are we seeing connections here between M/P/B?  ... though this still leaves
Betsy unexplained.

I wonder whether the -ie/y came first as a diminutive  Susan > Susie
Ronald> Ronnie   Richard > Ritchie  Michael > Micky  Paul> Paulie   etc etc
- even Mummy> Mumsie - though thanks to Noel Streatfeild (sic) 's The Bell
Family of the 1950s , I cringe when I hear this and see it as the height of
affectation!

The -s is really intriguing because it works with some names and not with
others - at least to my ears.

Babs / Suz / Wills/ Mags sound OK to me

But Dicks / Pauls/ Anns/ Vals/ Johns/ Rons   just don't work

Dickie  Paulie  Annie  (Val is already an abbreviation) Johnnie /
Johnny/Jonny & Ronnie all do. But then so do Susie, Annie, Willy/Willie
Maggie/Maggy

What do other people think?

best wishes

Heather

(Rendall)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Heather, you wrote above:

Well 'Polly' is always explained as a diminutive of Mary ( from Molly?) and
Peggy is also an affectionate / diminutive of Margaret.

Hmm ... Good point. That *is* pretty weird, isn't it? Perhaps I should
encourage people to be even more inventive with my names ... as long as they
are nice of course.

And isn't there also something about John being Jack, as in John F. Kennedy?

And Dick from Richard is strange, possibly based on toddlers'
mispronunciation (Rick > Dick).

And in Spanish you get cases like Dolores > Lola > Lolita, Eduardo > Lalo >
Lalito, Francisca > Paca > Paquita, Francisco > Paco > Paquito, Ignacio >
Nacho > Nachito. Dutch has cases like Willem > Pim, Jacob > Coos (the -s
again!), Cornelius > Kees (again!), Gertruida > Truus (again! plus pre-shift
long vowel!), Wald... > Woud... ~ Wout...  > Wob > Wobbe.

Well, there's no telling with people and names. My father addressed pretty
much all men whose names he forgot with "Kuddel" (from Kurt, I believe). It
used to embarrass us kids no end.

If you can get Betsy from Elizabeth, I don't see why Margaret can't give you
Babs.

Now, that one I can relate to: Elizabeth > Beth > (*Bethsy >) Betsy (apart
from Betty and Liz > Lizzy). Wasn't the great Gloriana herself, Elizabeth I,
called Beth or Bet?

Some names get stretched pretty far. Well known in Low Saxon is Fiete from
Friedrich, originally Frederik which often became Fredi, as in the case of
two of my uncles. So, after Germanization, an official Friedrich (who became
Fritz in German) could still be addressed as Fredi (['fre:di]) in the North.
Similarly, someone officially named Heinrich could still be called Hinnerk
(from Low Saxon Hinrik, Hinrick, etc.). And, as I mentioned before, Karl
could be addressed as Kalla or Kaller.

Babs / Suz / Wills/ Mags sound OK to me

But Dicks / Pauls/ Anns/ Vals/ Johns/ Rons   just don't work

Dickie  Paulie  Annie  (Val is already an abbreviation) Johnnie /
Johnny/Jonny & Ronnie all do. But then so do Susie, Annie, Willy/Willie
Maggie/Maggy

I wonder if the general rule, apart from certain phonological restrictions,
is that -s is not to be added to full names.  The twist may well be that
certain abbreviated names came to be perceived as full names, such as Dick,
Ron, Don and Val. There are now many names that started as abbreviated
version and are now considered as (possible) full names, such as Barbra,
Barry, Betty, Bindy, Candy, Carrie, Dora, Jake, Sandra and Sandy.

I am still intrigued by use of the said -s in both English and Dutch. I
wonder if there is any connection and what that might be.

Any idea anyone?

Reinhard/Ron
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