LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (04) [E]

Jonny Meibohm schreef:

I guess your information is from the English wikipedia- but I fear that's
wrong. There are, for my knowledge, no German phrases like 'braun buss' or
'brawn buss'- the only correct German word here just is 'braun'. Perhaps
the authors of that article mixed it up with the famous 'Browning'-guns,
which indeeed are very famous in Germany.

I know that in Dutch, a "bus" [b2s], which normally means a box, can
mean "gun" too, as in "donderbus" = blunderbuss. "Buks" [b2ks] is a rifle,
but the -ks in this word says it's probably a loan word, maybe from High
German or Frisian or English? Anyway, I think that this English "buss" may
be rather from Dutch than from German. Or maybe from Low Saxon, if that
has something like "büss" as well?

Ingmar

Rein schreef:

That's kind of nice in that it sounds rather familiar, something we would
say in Northern Germany. We used to call and sometimes still do call my
(much younger) brother (Michael ['miCa?El]) "Michimann" (['miCiman]).

Rein, was Michael really pronounced ["miCa?El], as you wrote about your
brother's name, or ["mixa?El] with [x] instead of [C] before "a". I'd
expect the latter but maybe it was a regional prono, or derived from
["miCi] ?

Groetz
Ingmar

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From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, well there you have it; Joker meets Naïveté :-)

I am the last to dispute the many possible ways words
are formed although I did realize after sending off
the note that cutefy is more correct than cutify.

So where does the word cute come from?

Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen /Elske/Els] or the middle
part [Liza/Lisa/Liz] and other groups the end syllables?

Elsie Zinsser

*Subject:*LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.15 (01) [E]
Kevin, I think you're right about Bessy. It's interesting, too: supposedly
Beth > Beths > Bess > Bessy.

Else, I was just kidding about those terms. Sorry I didn't make that
clearer.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Ingmar (and how, pray, do I cutesify *your* name -- Mars, the Ingster?), you
wrote:

Rein, was Michael really pronounced ["miCa?El], as you wrote about your
brother's name, or ["mixa?El] with [x] instead of [C] before "a". I'd
expect the latter but maybe it was a regional prono, or derived from
["miCi] ?

It was and still is pronounced ["miCa?El] (or ["miCa?el], the [C] being a
sound as in German *ich* and as the first sound in "human" in many English
dialects, folks). This is how it's pronounced in Standard German (unless
it's an English name, and if it's a Dutch or Hebrew name among those that
are in the know). I believe there are dialectical differences in this
especially in the extreme south of the German language region.

The phoneme /x/ rarely occurs between a front and back vowel (in this order)
and where it does it's in loanwords and names, I think. The phonological
rule is that it is the preceding vowel that ultimately determines the
pronunciation of the /x/, as also in Richard ["rICart] ~ ["riCart] and *
mechanisch* [mE"Ca:nIS]. This rule applies in Low Saxon of Germany as well.

By the way, the traditional Low Saxon equivalent of Michael is Michel
[mICl]. This is also the nickname of Hamburg's landmark: the copper-plated
spire of Sankt Michaelis (St. Michael) church. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Michaelis_%28Hamburg%29 -- The church
burned down several times and was bombed as well, its present design being a
magnificent example of a northern transition from baroque to
neo-classicistic. Napoleon's occupation force turned it into horse stables
as a symbol of French opinion about Protestantism. It was its interior were
I spent the evening of 9/11 when a baroque concert was adapted and dedicated
to the victims and at the end you heard bells ring from various churches --
a very moving experience.)

Dag, Elsie!

I'll answer your question about "cute" under "Etymology".

Another question about the Elizabeth>Beth/Betsy/Bessy:
Are certain language groups more inclined to shorten the front
end of the name [Eliza/Elsie/Elsje/Elschen
/Elske/Els] or the middle
part [Liza/Lisa/Liz] and other groups the end syllables?

In Low Saxon of Germany and in German, it's both the first and middle parts.


Low Saxon: Liesbeth > Else*, Elsi, Elli, Elsje, Elke*, Lisa, Liese, Lies,
Liesel

Else and Elke have become proper names in their own right.

Elsie, since you are one of the veterans and a well-known and well-respected
mainstay of Lowlands-L you ought to get one of those "The ..." names. But
that might end up being The Elster, and *Elster* is German for 'magpie'. Not
suitable! (Not only are they thievish, but they like to attack people when
they nest, as I have experienced many times). If we went to the original
Elizabeth, we might end up with The Lister. Hmm...

Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right. Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence.  The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron
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