LL-L "Language used" 2007.11.16 (06) [E]

Fri Nov 16 23:48:00 UTC 2007

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 November 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.16 (01) [E]

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.11.15 (05) [E]

>Dear Paul,

>I have to admit, I don't really understand your comment there at the end of
>Jonny's little ancdote.

Hi Helge,

Nothing to do with hunting! My comment was based on Johnny's suggestion that
if he'd used Standard German, he would have been met with an angry
reaction.  I only speak Standard German, so I assume I would get the same
bad reaction in the North. That's why I said I'd give the North a miss.  ( I
also speak some Afrikaans and a bit of Dutch but I don't suppose they'd help
much).  What I find even more surprising is that other Lowlanders seem to
regard this anti-German feeling as a good thing, to be encouraged.

Going in the other direction, I certainly met with no hostility in Austria
because I can't speak the Tyrolean of the Zillertal; they just spoke
standard German to me.

> A Londoner would expect that a person who comes to live in his town learns
>the English language in a way that he/she understands it, what is normal
and >perfectly alright for a Londoner is then suddenly chauvinism if the
same >demands come from a Low Saxon or, let's say a Geordie or Scotsman? I
don't >see the difference.

In England or Scotland, this is definitely not the case.  People here don't
like outsiders trying to speak the local dialect, they assume you are making
fun their speech.  They expect Standard English, even if spoken in the
visitor's own accent.  Geordies outside the Northeast tend to say "go"
rather than "gan", "our" rather than "wor", "can't" rather than "canna" but
they still have Northumberland accents.

If an outsider lives in an area long enough to naturally acquire some of the
local speech pattern, that's fine, but trying to "speak native" will win you
few friends anywhere in Britain.

Cheers

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language use

Hi, Paul!

Obviously I can't speak for Jonny, but I can tell you that I didn't get your
meaning right away either.

The way I understood Jonny's point was that the use of Low Saxon introduced
a more familial tone that diffused a volatile situation. The guy was not
pleased, but Jonny's demeanor, accentuated by his use of local lingo, took
the sting out of it.

I am not saying that there isn't a north-south divide. There is or at least
used to be (that is fundamentally of religious origin, and I bear personal
witness). However, I don't think Jonny's story was really about that. I
think it was about Standard German as a "neutral" lingua franca that tends
to maintain a certain distance between strangers by default. In part this is
because it requires you to use polite forms. In rural areas, use of the
standard form tends to be associated with city folk and Germany "out there,"
as opposed to people within the familial environment of the village. So this
could very well be the nearest city, not necessarily a city in the south.
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the guy could tell by Jonny's accent that he
was a North German. However, Jonny, by using the local lingo, even though
the guy couldn't speak it himself, signaled that he lived in or came from
the very area.

So what we seem to be dealing with here is a code choice for the purpose of
symbolically setting a cultural and social tone. ("I'm not one of those city
snobs that exploit our area for occasional hunting adventures and due to
ignorance and incompetence wreak havoc on locals' lives and livelihood.")
So, if it was about stereotyping and prejudices, it probably was a
country-versus-city thing rather than a north-versus-south thing.

As you may have noticed on occasion, people in rural Northern Germany tend
to (mistakenly) believe that proficiency in Low Saxon is exclusively rural,
that this is one of the things that differentiate them from city dwellers. I
believe that this is one of the reasons why some of them are surprised by
city dwellers' use and proficiency of the language and why they like to
dismiss it as unauthentic and plain wrong, especially when different and new
expressions are used. Thereby they seem to be declaring urban use of the
language invalid, this being an attempt to neutralize what they perceive as
being a threat (= change).

That's was my take on it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

•

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