LL-L "Names" 2007.11.18 (04) [E]
Lowlands-L List
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Sun Nov 18 22:46:18 UTC 2007
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================
From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]
Hi all,
The best example of a cookie by any other name is still a cookie, was when
my youngest sister
sent me a parcel of "Maria" biscuits from Palo Alto, CA in the '80s.
Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser
I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.
Ben
----------
From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names
Hi, Ben!
Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...
- Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) *Duarte de Portugal*
- Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) *Fernando V de Aragón*,
(Aragonese) *Ferrando II d'Aragón*, (Catalan) *Ferran II d'Aragó*
- Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) *Infante Dom Henrique, Infante de
Sagres, Henrique o Navegador*
- Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) *Isabel I de Castilla*
- Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) *Николай II Александрович
Всероссийский* (*Nikolaj II Aleksandrovič Vserossiskij*)
- Pippin the Short < (French) *Pépin le Bref *
- Pope John Paul II < (Latin) *Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus *
- Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) سليمان القانونى (*Sulaymān
al-Qānūnī*), (Turkish) *Kanuni Sultan Süleyman*
- Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) *Václav IV.*
- William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) *Gllâome lé
Counqùéreus, Gllâome lé Bâtard*, (French) *Guillaume le Conquérant,
Guillaume le Bâtard*
----------
From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell < kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]
By the way, another diminutive of Elizabeth in English is Libby, sometimes
further shortened to Lib. Then there's the nickname used by the boy for his
sister Elizabeth in the comic strip "For Better or for Worse": Lizard
Breath.
Kevin Caldwell
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]
Reindert schreef:
Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right.
Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than
when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence. The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.
Same name with same pronunciation is pretty common in the Netherlands, too.
It's an abbreviation of Reindert, the Dutch form of Reinhard.
And we have the (in)famous, smart and cunning fox "Reintje de Vos" of the
Medieval epic farce "van den Vos Reynaerde". I guess his name has
something to do with French Rénard = fox, but Reinhard is a Germanic name
too, of course. By which I don't mean to say anything about your foxiness
or foxilessness, of course ;-)
Ingmar
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names
Thanks for reminding us of "Libby," Kevin. It's interesting in that it
combines the "Li" of the original's stressed syllable and the "b" of the
last syllable.
One of the German and Low Saxon derivations of "Elisabeth" ([?e"li:zabEt])
is "Liesbeth" (["li:sbEt]). That was one of my second aunts' name, and down
in the former Sorbian area where she lived (right on the Polish border and
very close to the Czech border) I heard some people pronounce it as what
sounded like "Libbet" (["LIbEt"]) or "Libbit" (["lIbIt])*, though others
called her "Lies(e)l" ([li:zl]). (* The Lower Silesian German dialect on
Sorbian substrate spoken there tends to assimilate a sonorant, especially
/r/, to the following consonant, hence my maternal grandmother's
pronunciation of our names: Herta -> Hetta -> Hettl, Werner -> Wenner,
[Barbara >] Bärbel -> Bebbl, Reinhard -> Reinaddl, and her own name Martha
-> Matta -- all without aspiration, by the way.)
The older Low Saxon version of "Elizabeth" (found in the story about the
fisherman and his wife) is "Ilsebil", "Ilsebel", "Elsebel", etc. (from which
"Ilse" and "Else" are derived, now considered independent names). It is
interesting in that it seems to be a bit of a link between the two streams
the Hebrew name "Elisheva" (אֱלִישֶׁבַע *'ĕliyšeba'* "My God Is My
Sustenance") followed in Europe: (1) "Elizabeth" etc., and (2) "Isabel" etc.
There is perhaps some confusion with "Jezebel" (Hebrew אִיזֶבֶל *'iyzebel* ~
אִיזָבֶל *'iyzâbel*, popularly translated as "Not Exalted" but more likely
being "Where Is The Lord," going back to Ugaritic times). This name acquired
a bad connotation (and possibly a changed reading) on the basis of a
biblical story and in English became a word describing a wicked woman.
Thanks for the info about my name in Dutch, Ingmar (> Mars > Mazzel?). I
find it interesting that Dutch (and Dutch-influenced Low Saxon) likes (or
liked) to insert a /d/ after /n/, as also in "Hendrik" (cf. "Henrik",
"Hinrik" and "Hinnerk" in other Low Saxon dialects).
Talking about "Hendrik" (= Heinrich, Henry, etc.), I wonder if the English
surname "Henderson" goes back to the often mentioned "Flemish" immigrants in
Britain ("Son of Hender" < Hendrik?).
Back to my legal first name ... The Middle Saxon equivalent is "Reynard"
with the diminutive form "Reynke", *Reynard the Fox* being *Reynke de
vos*in the Middle Saxon version (Lübeck, 1498,
http://tinyurl.com/3b9jah). The Dutch version *Van den vos Reynaerde* (
http://tinyurl.com/37rcz2) is from the 13th century, the French version *Le
Roman de Renart* from the late 12th century, and this crafty fox is first
mentioned in the Latin mock-epic *Ysengrimus* in the mid-12th century.
Although most people believe this tradition is of French origin, I think
there's a distinct possibility of it being of Germanic, possibly Flemish,
origin, going by the names alone. It appears to be related to the Spanish *
Zorro* ("Fox") tradition. It is clear to me that the main purpose of the
story was social commentary centered around the figure of a clever outlaw
that exposes institutionalized insincerity and injustice.
The name Reynard, Reinhard, etc., comes from Raginhart: *ragin* 'counsel',
advice', 'guidance', *hart* 'hard', 'firm', 'reliable'. It appears to have
once been a title. *Ragin* is also contained in names like Reinhold,
Reginald, Reinaldo, Rainaud, Rainier, René, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.
- My least favorite namesake: Reinhard Heydrich, SS-Obergruppenführer
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich)
- My most favorite namesake: Reinhard Mey (*Frédérik Mey* in the
Francophone world), singer/songwriter in German, French and occasionally
Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey)*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey%29*>
As for your reference to my alleged "foxiness," Ingmar, well, I take it as a
compliment, and it flatters me to know that you find me that attractive.
Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
* Reinhard Mey is a real Lowlander at heart, by the way, even though he grew
up in formerly Low Saxon but long highly Germanized Berlin and was educated
in a Francophone school. He owns a house in Kampen (*Kaamp*), on the Island
of Sylt (
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 November 2007 - Volume 04
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================
From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.11.17 (01) [E]
Hi all,
The best example of a cookie by any other name is still a cookie, was when
my youngest sister
sent me a parcel of "Maria" biscuits from Palo Alto, CA in the '80s.
Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser
I was shocked to find out that Queen Elizabeth of England is not known as
Reina Elizabet here but Isabel! That sound so weird to me to think that the
brits are ruled by Ferdinand's wife? I see how it came down phonologically
from the Hebrew, but it's still strange.
Ben
----------
From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names
Hi, Ben!
Names of famous people are very often translated in English too; e.g., ...
· Edward of Portugal < (Portuguese) Duarte de Portugal
· Ferdinand V of Aragon < (Castilian) Fernando V de Aragón,
(Aragonese) Ferrando II d'Aragón , (Catalan) Ferran II d'Aragó
· Henry the Navigator < (Portuguese) Infante Dom Henrique,
Infante de Sagres, Henrique o Navegador
· Isabella I of Castile < (Castilian) Isabel I de Castilla
· Nicholas II of Russia < (Russian) Николай II Александрович
Всероссийский (Nikolaj II Aleksandrovič Vserossiskij)
· Pippin the Short < (French) Pépin le Bref
· Pope John Paul II < (Latin) Papa Ioannes Paulus Secundus
· Suleiman the Magnificent < (Ottoman Turkish) سليمان
القانونى (Sulaymān
al-Qānūnī), (Turkish) Kanuni Sultan Süleyman
· Wenceslaus (~ Wenceslas) IV < (Czech) Václav IV.
· William the Conqueror, William the Bastard < (Norman) Gllâome
lé Counqùéreus, Gllâome lé Bâtard, (French) Guillaume le Conquérant,
Guillaume le Bâtard
----------
From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell < kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.16 (02) [E]
By the way, another diminutive of Elizabeth in English is Libby, sometimes
further shortened to Lib. Then there's the nickname used by the boy for his
sister Elizabeth in the comic strip "For Better or for Worse": Lizard
Breath.
Kevin Caldwell
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2007.11.17 (03) [E]
Reindert schreef:
Interesting to watch Ingmar's and Jonny's attempts to make a derivation of
my legal name stick. Probably the only thing I used to like about the name
was that it was hard to come up with a derived form that sounded right.
Some
people tried. Most didn't dare. These days I'm far more open to it than
when
I was young and working on my dignity and image and was cultivating an
intimidating presence. The first people I allowed to get away with it
(Reinchen, det Reinchen) was a very nice young couple from Berlin, travel
companions in Norway. The name "Rein" [rEIn] is pretty common in Estonia.
Same name with same pronunciation is pretty common in the Netherlands, too.
It's an abbreviation of Reindert, the Dutch form of Reinhard.
And we have the (in)famous, smart and cunning fox "Reintje de Vos" of the
Medieval epic farce "van den Vos Reynaerde". I guess his name has
something to do with French Rénard = fox, but Reinhard is a Germanic name
too, of course. By which I don't mean to say anything about your foxiness
or foxilessness, of course ;-)
Ingmar
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names
Thanks for reminding us of "Libby," Kevin. It's interesting in that it
combines the "Li" of the original's stressed syllable and the "b" of the
last syllable.
One of the German and Low Saxon derivations of "Elisabeth" ([?e"li:zabEt])
is "Liesbeth" (["li:sbEt]). That was one of my second aunts' name, and down
in the former Sorbian area where she lived (right on the Polish border and
very close to the Czech border) I heard some people pronounce it as what
sounded like "Libbet" (["LIbEt"]) or "Libbit" (["lIbIt])*, though others
called her "Lies(e)l" ([li:zl]). (* The Lower Silesian German dialect on
Sorbian substrate spoken there tends to assimilate a sonorant, especially
/r/, to the following consonant, hence my maternal grandmother's
pronunciation of our names: Herta -> Hetta -> Hettl, Werner -> Wenner,
[Barbara >] Bärbel -> Bebbl, Reinhard -> Reinaddl, and her own name Martha
-> Matta -- all without aspiration, by the way.)
The older Low Saxon version of "Elizabeth" (found in the story about the
fisherman and his wife) is "Ilsebil", "Ilsebel", "Elsebel", etc. (from which
"Ilse" and "Else" are derived, now considered independent names). It is
interesting in that it seems to be a bit of a link between the two streams
the Hebrew name "Elisheva" (אֱלִישֶׁבַע *'ĕliyšeba'* "My God Is My
Sustenance") followed in Europe: (1) "Elizabeth" etc., and (2) "Isabel" etc.
There is perhaps some confusion with "Jezebel" (Hebrewאִיזֶבֶל * **'**iyzeb
el* ~אִיזָבֶל ***'**i**yzâbel*, popularly translated as "Not Exalted" but
more likely being "Where Is The Lord," going back to Ugaritic times). This
name acquired a bad connotation (and possibly a changed reading) on the
basis of a biblical story and in English became a word describing a wicked
woman.
Thanks for the info about my name in Dutch, Ingmar (> Mars > Mazzel?). I
find it interesting that Dutch (and Dutch-influenced Low Saxon) likes (or
liked) to insert a /d/ after /n/, as also in "Hendrik" (cf. "Henrik",
"Hinrik" and "Hinnerk" in other Low Saxon dialects).
Talking about "Hendrik" (= Heinrich, Henry, etc.), I wonder if the English
surname "Henderson" goes back to the often mentioned "Flemish" immigrants in
Britain ("Son of Hender" < Hendrik?).
Back to my legal first name ... The Middle Saxon equivalent is "Reynard"
with the diminutive form "Reynke", *Reynard the Fox* being *Reynke de
vos*in the Middle Saxon version (Lübeck, 1498,
http://tinyurl.com/3b9jah). The Dutch version *Van den vos Reynaerde* (
http://tinyurl.com/37rcz2) is from the 13th century, the French version *Le
Roman de Renart* from the late 12th century, and this crafty fox is first
mentioned in the Latin mock-epic *Ysengrimus* in the mid-12th century.
Although most people believe this tradition is of French origin, I think
there's a distinct possibility of it being of Germanic, possibly Flemish,
origin, going by the names alone. It appears to be related to the Spanish *
Zorro* ("Fox") tradition. It is clear to me that the main purpose of the
story was social commentary centered around the figure of a clever outlaw
that exposes institutionalized insincerity and injustice.
The name Reynard, Reinhard, etc., comes from Raginhart: *ragin* 'counsel',
advice', 'guidance', *hard* 'hard', 'firm', 'reliable'. It appears to have
once been a title. *Ragin* is also contained in names like Reinhold,
Reginald, Reinaldo, Rainaud, Rainier, René, Rainer, Ragnar, etc.
- My least favorite namesake: Reinhard Heydrich, SS-Obergruppenführer
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich)
- My most favorite namesake: Reinhard Mey ( *Frédérik Mey* in the
Francophone world), singer/songwriter in German, French and occasionally
Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey)*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Mey%29*>
As for references to my alleged "foxiness," Ingmar, well, I take it as a
compliment, and it flatters me no end to know that at least one person on
LL-L finds me that attractive.
Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
* Reinhard Mey is a real Lowlander at heart, by the way, even though he grew
up in formerly Low Saxon but long highly Germanized Berlin and was educated
in a Francophone school. He owns a house in Kampen (*Kaamp*), on the Island
of Sylt (*Söl*), often expresses his love for the North Sea, displays an
affinity for the Dutch-speaking world, and two of his recent DVD titles are
North Frisian: *Rüm Hart* ("Spacious Heart", http://tinyurl.com/2cpad7) and
*Klaar Kiming* ("Clear Horizon", http://tinyurl.com/2bypr3) based on the
North Frisian motto *Rüm Hart, klaar Kiming*.), often expresses his love for
the North Sea, displays an affinity for the Dutch-speaking world, and two of
his DVD titles are North Frisian: *Rüm Hart* ("Spacious Heart",
http://tinyurl.com/2cpad7) and *Klaar Kiming* ("Clear Horizon",
http://tinyurl.com/2bypr3) based on the North Frisian motto *Rüm Hart, klaar
Kiming*.
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