LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.09 (01) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 October 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Mike,

You wrote:

> Other examples can be added, notably Irish Gaelic. One doesn't
> popularize a language
> by teaching it (only) in school.

Same goes for Dutch, which was taught for decades in Southern Belgium.
Changed next to nothing in the general perception down south. Even
worse, now that Dutch has gained some status thanks to economic success
in the North, many Walloon people would rather use English than Dutch
when addressing us.

For me it all boils down to the question: Is there enough demand for the
language in question to be introduced? If not, forget your offer. There
used to be a time when imposing yourself still worked (for a while).
Those days are gone in my opinion. If you can't "seduce" the other
party, you're gonna lose (in the long run). I can already hear some
people say "Create some demand then": Brrr...! Mental, physical and
economic coercion are all just as bad to me.

Like it or not, this world has no global government (yet). So in the
meantime, sovereignty (both political and linguistic) is like a conditio
sine qua non to me.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.08 (02) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.07 (04) [E]
>
> Or the 6th: No, Sandy-Sir!
> if you continue to argue this way:

I'm really just trying to suggest that you take a more positive
approach. Even (or especially) if you think the situation is hopeless, a
negative approach doesn't help anything.

> > However, you (and Gabriele) seem to me always to put the priority
> not on
> > having the language taught but on preserving all the dialects as
> they
> > are. I agree that this is hopeless, but its only your lack of
> realism
> > that makes it an issue.
> Lack of realism? Another 'No'. That IS realistic- all the different,
> laudable ideas and attempts how to save a language are dreams, far
> away from today's situation.

I was saying that it was unrealistic to expect language to remain
unchanged.

> So- what medium-dialect should we call Low Saxon worth to preserve it
> 'as the leading, only one' for the future? Who should make a decision
> about it? Should there be any scale of values I've never heard about
> before?

What you're suggesting is completely unnecessary. There's no reason why
there shouldn't be different dialects. If two dialects are really so
different that they can't be reconciled even with some effort at finding
common ground between speakers, then you've got two different languages
and they should be taught as such. But from what I see on this list
there's actually no real problem in communicating in Low Saxon amongst
different dialects in writing, and the problems with the extra phonetic
differences that make speech varieties more disparate needn't be an
issue.

It seems strange to me that you argue the mutual unintelligibility of
different Low Saxon dialects and yet complain that they're all watered
down with words from German and Dutch. How can the different dialects of
Low Saxon in, say, Germany be irreconcilable with each other and yet not
worthily distinct from German?

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.08 (08) [E/LS]

Beste Sönke,

Du schreyvst:

> If
> there is some affection left for the language, and not only for your 'old
> days' - they indeed won't come back - then, too, stop moaning and *do*
> something. What about travelling your local area, gathering "real and
> correct" expressions, sayings, words, and commiting them to a broader
> public? *That* would be of real use.

That's exactly one of the few things that I'm doing since years, and maybe
it helps to let any language with Low Saxon colour survive- but this way
surely not as a spoken, vital one.

But- let us try to go back to the beginning of this discussion.
Ron quoted an article from INS Press:

Schulfach Niederdeutsch gefordert

(ins) „Plattdeutsch ist als eigenes Schulfach zu unterrichten." So lautet
eine der Kernforderungen, die der Bundesraat för Nedderdüütsch am 4. Oktober
auf seiner Sitzung in Schwerin erhob. Die Delegierten aus den acht
Bundesländern, in denen Platt gesprochen wird, waren sich einig, dass die
Stellung des Niederdeutschen im gesamten Bildungssektor nach wie vor
unbefriedigend ist. In den Kindergärten sei die Bereitschaft, die Jüngsten
an Platt heranzuführen, durchaus gewachsen. Auch in den Schulen ließen sich
gute Ansätze erkennen, aber hier mangele es vor allem an Absprachen unter
den Ländern und an klaren Zielbestimmungen.

Die Platt-Vertreter berufen sich dabei auch auf den Staatsrechtler Stefan
Oeter, der die integrierte Vermittlung des Niederdeutschen im Rahmen des
Deutschunterrichts in Frage stellt, weil dieser Weg zu wenig leistet,
„soweit es wirklich um den Erhalt des Niederdeutschen als eigener Sprache
geht." Um diesem Ziel näher zu kommen, müssen die Niederdeutsch-Angebote an
den Hochschulen erheblich verbessert werden, und zwar sowohl im Rahmen der
Lehrerausbildung, als auch in den BA- und MAStudiengängen.

Ihre Sitzung in Schwerin nutzten die Plattdeutsch-Delegierten, um mit
Abgeordneten des Landtags von Mecklenburg-Vorpommern ins Gespräch zu kommen.
„Schließlich ist es für unsere Arbeit wichtig, dass wir wissen, wo genau die
Fragen und Probleme vor Ort liegen, und wer unsere Vorstellungen in die
politischen Gremien hineintragen kann", betonte Saskia Luther, Mitglied des
Bundesraat för  Nedderdüütsch aus Sachsen-Anhalt.

and I answered THIS would not be the way to rescue Low Saxon.

I'm very much doubting if there is any different way, too, but all the whiny
clamour for official regulations demanded from any helpless governments are
mithering me. It seems to be one of the typical symptoms of the so called
'German Desease', and I had mentioned this in earlier mails.
Punctum!

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
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