LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.10 (01) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 October 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Mike Wintzer <k9mw at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.09 (01) [E/LS]

Jonny wrote in response to

"Schulfach Niederdeutsch gefordert":

"and I answered THIS would not be the way to rescue Low Saxon."

I agree fully (see my last posting re Irish and Russian),
but wouldn't it be one of the possible first small stepping stones?

Greetings, Mike Wintzer

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From: "M.-L. Lessing" <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Liebe Lowlanders,

ausnahmsweise auf Hochdeutsch. Mir scheint, wenn wir das mit
LS-Unterricht (an Schulen oder anderen Einrichtungen) durchsetzen wollen,
müssen wir "Sprache unterrichten" ganz neu denken. Mut macht, was Ingmar
schrieb:

Low Saxon: it is one languages

Schön! :-)) Und:

in the N.O. Netherlands, Low Saxon is taught in several towns, but the
course book only in this small province with maybe 400.000 inhabitants
already has five or six varieties...

Das ist also möglich. Ich glaube, anders kann es auch nicht gehen. Liebe
Leute, wenn wir diese Vielfalt der Platt-Varietäten bewusst hintenrüber
fallen lassen oder auch nur versehentlich verlieren, tun wir uns keinen
Gefallen! Das wäre dann nicht mehr Platt, was sonst unterrichtet würde. Und
was wir als erstes verlören, sind die letzten echten Plattdeutschen. Dann
hätten wir eine Sprache fast ohne Menschen (ja, wir nachgewachsenen
Sprecherinnen gedeihen nur auf dem Mist der authentischen alten
Sprecherinnen!), praktisch eine Kunstsprache, und derer kann man mehr
erfinden. Das kann nicht der Sinn der Sache sein.

Was *ist* denn der Sinn der Sache? Steht die Sprache für sich selbst? Ich
selber denke Plattdeutsch zusammen mit einer Lebensart, einem
Menschenschlag, einer Art zu sein. Eben einer Identität. Diese Identität ist
nicht nur Grammatik und Vokabeln! Wir von der globalisierten Generation
können diese Identität auch nicht neu erfinden, bloß weil wir sie vermissen.
Ich selber würde mich gern an das halten -- bzw. mich an ihm entlanghangeln
:-) --, was für uns noch zu erreichen ist vom Authentischen. Das ist weder
nostalgisch noch humoristisch, es ist etwas Echtes, was ich noch im
Plattdeutsch meiner Mutter und in ihren Erzählungen klingen höre. Es ist
nicht besser und nicht schlechter, sondern eigen. Ich kann es noch sehen, es
ist noch in unserer Sichtweite. Wollen wir das bewahren? Ich schon; ich kann
mir beides nicht auseinanderdenken.

Paul Finlow-Bates schrieb: "Expansion of your language doesn't strengthen
your identity, it dilutes it." Wenn die Sprache mit dieser Identität steht
und fällt (und das ist für das Plattdeutsche der Fall, anders als für große
Verkehrssprachen wie Hochdeutsch oder Englisch), sollten wir hier nicht zu
viel riskieren. Wir haben es bei einer Sprache mit etwas sehr Intimem zu
tun, mit dem Medium, in dem jede/r Einzelne seine und ihre Gedanken
verfasst. Wenn wir dafür Regeln aufstellen, müssen wir auf die Integrität
und Würde dieses Mediums sehr achten, sonst verlieren wir die Menschen. Vor
Jahren hat Jonny mal in diesem Forum einen Satz gesagt, den ich nie
vergessen habe; der Wortlaut war ziemlich genau so: "Let the sweet old
language die and do not drag her, all kicking and screaming, into an
artificial new life." (Diesen Satz habe ich wirklich "by heart" gelernt :-))
Gut, Sterbenlassen ist das, was wir a priori ausschließen wollen. Aber dann
sind wir gefordert, denn die Gefühle, die Jonny für seine (!) Sprache wie
für einen geliebten Menschen hegt, sind vollkommen gut und richtig und
sollten nicht verletzt werden. Wenn die Sprache aber noch so viel Kraft hat,
sich "kicking and screaming" zu wehren, können wir vielleicht genau diese
Kräfte nutzen...?

Luc schrieb: "Is there enough demand for the
language in question to be introduced? If not, forget your offer. There
used to be a time when imposing yourself still worked (for a while).
Those days are gone in my opinion. If you can't "seduce" the other
party, you're gonna lose (in the long run). I can already hear some
people say "Create some demand then": Brrr...! Mental, physical and
economic coercion are all just as bad to me."
Wenn echte Nachfrage erzeugt werden *kann*, ist es meines Erachtens legitim,
das zu tun. "If you can't "seduce" the other party..." -- Na, dann machen
wir das doch! Das wäre der beste Weg, wenn wir die Menschen zum
Niederdeutschen verlocken könnten, sodass die Sprache von innen heraus
wächst; die Nachfrage nach äußeren Strukturen wie Schulunterricht und
Straßenschildern käme dann von selbst. Ist das jetzt zu romantisch gedacht?

Nachdenkliche Grüße

Marlou

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2007.10.08 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:
>
>
> This is one of the reasons why I advocate "looking across the garden
> fence," but even that tends to be dismissed since some have decided that
> what is being spoken in the Netherlands is a creature of an alien kind, is
> thus irrelevant.


That's plain bollocks. People saying that should visite my area and that on
the other side of the border sometime. They'd see that dialects on both
sides of the border form a continuum. Ok, dialects are coloured by the
national language on both sides, but still.

Not too long ago I bumped into an African American that could hold a simple
> conversation in "Platt" with me. He had learned it while living in the
> Rostock area.


Ah, Rostock. That brings back another memory. I had a colleague once, from
Rostock. All my other colleagues had trouble expressing themselves in
German, and he had trouble expressing himself in Dutch and English. The only
2 people that could really converse about anything, were the 2 of us, simply
because we both spoke Low Saxon. Had no trouble talking to him at all. I
also let him read 2 short texts I had written, using an orthography very
similar to your ANS, and he had no trouble reading it. I also recall that at
times his dialect sounded more Dutch than mine, which I thought was weird,
seeing that Rostock is a pretty long end from the Netherlands.

Having Yared act as one of the hosts of this program may be beneficial, if
> only to make some people think (which, as you know, can be quite a task in
> itself). ...
>
> The need to make people rethink ...


I feel that's one of the largest hurdles to take, to get people to actually
think about it. Haven't been very succesful at that myself. Sometimes I can
get outsiders like Americans to think differently, but getting Dutchmen or
even Low Saxons themselves to think about Low Saxon, I don't know how. Any
suggestions?

good gaon,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Moyen, Henry!

Aren't you already doing a fair bit in the way of making people (re)think by
using the language (the story you related being a typical example), by
sharing your thoughts and opinions (such as here) and thus by displaying
your attitude?

Most people don't like to be lectured. In fact, most people hate it and tune
out when someone "lectures." So you can talk and even rant until you're blue
in the face, and most people will hardly know what it was you said. This is
simply because it's too abstract for them; they can't connect the dots
between idea and realization. And, if you come up with novel ideas, they
might just brush you off as yet another head-in-the-clouds would-be mover
and shaker.

In my opinion, discussions are great among people that can deal with the
abstract and are able and willing to connect dots. A more effective way with
regard to the majority of people you want to get through to is, in my
opinion, to be a leader, to do things other than or besides theorizing. And
there is something all of us can do if we care, not only on behalf of Low
Saxon but on behalf of Scots, Frisian, Limburgish, etc., any language that
is considered minor and has a hard time surviving. For example -- and these
are just a few examples:

   - use the language as much as possible to inspire others and increase
   exposure to it,
   - start a local or regional group that uses the language, and connect
   it with other such groups,
   - teach the language at your local community center, community
   college, etc.
   - get in touch with educators and youth group organizers to discuss
   the possibility of language-related activities four youngsters, even if it's
   "only" the occasional half-hour "demonstration,"
   - get in touch with parent and senior organizations to discuss the use
   or reintroduction of the ancestral language in the home,
   - tell your local pastor, minister, priest, rabbi, mullah, etc., that
   you'd love to see at least occasional use of the language in services and
   social gatherings,
   - bug the webmasters of official and other websites representing your
   area to present the regional language as one of the choices,
   - start a community access radio or TV program in your language,
   - blog in your language,
   - start a newsletter in your language,
   - start a printed or electronic journal dedicated to your language,
   - start a discussion group or list about and/or in your language,
   - if you're a writer, write and publish at least some of your works in
   your language,
   - if you're a performer, perform in your language at least some of the
   time,
   - tell "outsiders" about your language (to create outside attention,
   which in turn boosts speakers' awareness and confidence),
   - collect and present other people's works written in your language,
   - use the language in "non-traditional" ways (e.g., offer it as a
   choice in computer programming instructions),
   - visit local bookstores and libraries and ask that more works in your
   language be made available and be displayed separately from works in the
   respective power language (and provide lists of recommended works with ISBN
   numbers),
   - support other people's or organizations' related efforts that you
   approve of.

Each person's effort may seem insignificant to him or her, but you must
visualize the ripple effect it's likely to have. Even if you impact one
person, this person may impact several other persons, and so forth.

Talking here is to a large extent like preaching to the choir (never mind a
few slightly out-of-tune voices -- and we love them all anyway ...).
Gathering and digesting other people's ideas as well as people's responses
to your ideas is one step. The next logical steps are to figure out what it
is that you can do, to ask for ideas, help and support, and finally to
implement your ideas, all the while willing to forge ahead despite the
negativity you'll inevitably encounter.

Look at Marlou as just one example. She's by no means what you might call a
"radical," but she uses what she is good at in order to get things done that
she cares about, thus helping not only the language but also individual
writers, spreading knowledge and pleasure around, and encouraging and
inspiring others. (www.plattpartu.de/)

Another example is the Freudenthal Society (www.freudenthal-gesellschaft.de/,
lowlands-l.net/plattewelt/freudenthal2.htm). I support it because it
accommodates "traditional" and "non-traditional" interests and activities,
thus clearly "looks across the garden fence" without neglecting the garden.
It is also leading with regard to promoting and supporting Low Saxon writing
of all genres (including what some people find shockingly modern) and of all
areas and countries. Several people in the Netherlands have lately won their
literature prize (lowlands-l.net/plattewelt/freudenthal.htm, as have Marlou
and I, among many others). They are acknowledging connections across the
Netherlands-German border and across other borders as well. Cross-border
literary competitions are also being organized by the City of Leer, Eastern
Friesland. If you think that's a good thing, then support it by joining, by
participating and/or by inspiring others to do so.

Similar things can be said for instance in the Scots area of the Scots
Language Society and its journal Lallans (www.lallans.co.uk/), subscription
to which comes with membership. It not only promotes the Scots language in
general but also specifically promotes Scots writers, accommodates a good
range of genres and styles, and is open to international contributions and
membership. If you're interested in Scots, now there's another way to make a
difference. If you don't live in Scotland and/or are not Scottish you can
still support the Scots cause and in the bargain watch your knowledge about
Scots and your Scots reading proficiency improve by leaps and bounds.
Furthermore, if you want to be involved on behalf of another language, this
is a good source from which to glean ideas. In fact, it's a very good idea
to look across several fences, also outside the Lowlands, to get ideas, to
compare notes and to network. The Scots case happens to be of special
interest to us in the Low Saxon area, because, as far as I know, Scots
speakers, like Low Saxon speakers, are not officially considered a separate
ethnic group. (Scotland has three "autochtonous" languages: Scots, English
and Gaelic, and the speakers are all Scottish.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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