LL-L "Traditions" 2007.10.14 (03) [D/E/LS]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  14 October 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.10.13 (01) [E]

From: Danette & John Howland < dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: "Traditions"

Hello, All.

Does anyone have ideas about the origin of the "Zwarte Pieten" who accompany
St. Nicholas? Is "Black Pete" merely a scary little Kobold, or did he once
serve a different purpose?

I have been in a discussion about Yuletide origins with a correspondent who
brought up the thought that since St. Nicholas is a Church-approved reflex
for the germanic god Woden the "Zwarte Pieten" may represent his ravens.
Cool idea, I think.

Any thoughts on this?

Best wishes,

John
I've not heard of Zwarte Pieten, but some years ago one of the big
department stores in Wollongong in Australia had a Christmas window display
with shop dummies dressed as various traditional Christmas figures. The
modern Santa, mediaeval Father  Winter, Sinte Claas etc.  But one that
sticks in my mind was "Belsnikkel", apparently traditional amongst the
Pennsylvania Dutch in the USA.  I called him the "Heavy Metal Goth Santa";
Dressed in black robes with a thick bushy black beard, apparently somebody
dressed like this would go from house to house, rapping on the windows and
making horrible grimaces at the kids.  Then, when they'd presumably been
scared s**tless, he'd scatter sweets and little gifts.  Talk about mixed
messages!
I don't know if Pennsylvania Dutch folk grow up particularly disturbed, but
I fully understand if they do.

Paul Finlow-Bates

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.10.13 (05) [D/E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Traditions
>
[...]
> Ja, den bruuk vind vergnoyglich [leuk], wyl dat by
> em vun dey "oostersche"
> kant dey royk un kwalm oever d'n "paal" na us Theo
> syn huus trekt, wen dey
> wind westwarts stayt. Elk jaar suyst den us Theo in
> syn slaapantog up d'n
> balkong staan eyrder dat hey wys' wardt dat 't
> wedder Oostern [Pasen] is.
> Dat is nu so 'n slag regionale Ooster-traditschoon.
> Ik toyv' up 'n video
> daar vun.
>
> Man [maar] dat mit d'n oursprung vun düssen bruuk
> is wedder 'n annern snak
> ... ;-)
>
> Kumpelmenten,
> Reinhard/Ron

Ja, precies zoals je zegt, Ron.
Dan weet ik elk jaar weer dat het Pasen is.

Als nu voortaan onze beminnelijke oosterburen op
kerstavond zo hard gaan zingen dat ik het kan horen,
weet ik voortaan ook elk jaar dat het weer kerstmis
is.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: "A. van der Ploeg" <antonpap at xs4all.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.10.13 (05) [D/E/LS]

Hallo listservers,
I 'm new on the list. My name is Anton. Are new on the list. Live in the
province of Fryslân. Which language is preferable  on this list?

*Over Sinterklaas: he was bisschop in Myra (Turkije). Kwam oet  Spanjen.
Leefde docht ik so rund  den tweeden helft 1300. Kunt de "zwarte Pieten"
nicht verwizen noar de Moren in die tyd in Spanje?
*Anton

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: ETraditions

Hoi, Anton, and welcome!

Your language choice is free, and different people prefer different
languages. Of course, the one with which you reach everyone is English.
However, ideal is this: first your preferred language and then an English
version or synopsis.

Paul, that Pennsylvania German Belsnikkel type must be a relative of the
German Knecht Ruprecht (Rupert the Helper), a gruff type that punishes and
scares while helping the Weihnachtsmanns (Father Christmas). My feeling is
that he's a remnant of the pre-Christian end-of-year mummers that purged the
village of demons, a tradition you still find in Alemannic areas. The
Scandinavian tradition of loudly singing and stomping throughout the house
on Christmas must be related to this also. The Knecht Ruprecht tradition was
later used to keep children in line, since the Weihnachtsmanns (who is the
relative of St. Nick) would leave the task of punishing naughty children to
him.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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