LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.15 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  15 October 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]

> From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (01) [E]
> later unrounded to /i/ or /e/. Cf. West Flemish pit (English pit,
> Dutch put), or traditional/old Southern Hollandic dialects "mitch" as
> I once heard a friend use, mosquito, English midge/Dutch mug.
> In most of the cases, Dutch /u/ (/y/) thus correspondends to
> German /ü/ (/y/).
> Cfr. also
> http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/weij005nede01/weij005nede01ill55.gif for ü >
> i.
In het Schouws (Noord-Zeeuws) noemen we dat insect een 'mogge'.
--
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]

What Diederick (ha, hoe gaat het met jou?) wrote is true for short u.
Written u in closed syllables stands for the short sound [Y] or rather [2]
in Standard Dutch, and for [U] in German. U in open syllables in Dutch is
[y], or [y:] before r. In close syllables, this is spelt uu. Examples:
rug [r2x] = back, bukken ["b2k@] = to bend; futen ["fyt@] = a kind of
water bird (plural), buren ["by:r@] = neighbors; huur [hy:r] = rent; fuut
[fyt] = a kind of water bird (singular). In German, long u = [u:],
sometimes spelt uh. I thought, Ben, you were not asking about Old Germanic
u, only how it is used in ortho and prono in Dutch and German nowadays, is
that true? Well, the state border is the pronunciation border as well in
this case: e.g. at the Dutch side of the border "natuur" = [na"ty:r], and
at the German side it's "Natur" = [na"thu:9].

Groeten/grüsse
Ingmar

Diederik Masure schreef:
As Ron pointed out, Dutch /y/ vs. German /u/ are not in complementary
distribution, the two languages only use the same grapheme for these
different sounds. Dutch /y/ rather correspondends with words that in German
have /ü/: rug, rück(e?) [Engl. back; my German is not so accurate]. Brug
vs.
brück(e? not sure about this -e either). The umlaut of old Germanic /u/
usually turns up as /y/ in both languages, written /u/ and /ü/. In
(traditional) coastal Dutch dialects that later unrounded to /i/ or /e/.
Cf.
West Flemish pit (English pit, Dutch put), or traditional/old Southern
Hollandic dialects "mitch" as I once heard a friend use, mosquito, English
midge/Dutch mug.
In most of the cases, Dutch /u/ (/y/) thus correspondends to German /ü/
(/y/).
Cfr. also http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/weij005nede01/weij005nede01ill55.gif
for
ü > i.

The old Germanic /u/ however, remained /u/ in many words in (Standard) High
German, and is spelled /u/. In Standard Dutch, this sound generally became
/o/ and is thus written /o/. German /hund/ is Dutch /hond/, etcetera.
The dialectal situation in Dutch is however more complicated. In front of
/p:/, /k:/, /f:/ /m:/ and /ng:/ it's usually preserved in the Antwerp
dialect, and probably in a bigger area in (Belgian) Brabant as well,
although I don't dare to draw any conclusions about other Brab. dialects.
In
more modern Antw. dialect (due to standard influence), only /ng/ and /m/
still preserve the /u/ instead of the /o/, apart from some frequent
relictwords as oep (Engl. up, Dutch op) or stoeffen (actually  <stoffen,
but
since the word doesnt exist in St. D. it didn't get replaced with an /o/)
Traditional dialect has poep (puppet, Dutch pop), and boek (buck, Dutch
bok); but these forms are now only seldomly used anymore.
The distribution of Old Norse /u/ > /o/, /u/ in standard spoken Norwegian
is
similar to that of Antwerpian (pp, kk, m, ng/nk, ff)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20071015/9bc0abfb/attachment.htm>