LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.20 (03) [A/D/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 October 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.18 (01) [E]

Dear Heather,

in answer to your investigations about _Rugge_ I may be a bit late, but
perhaps I can show some still interesting details.

> Does LS 'ruug' get used as part of places names?
I just found one village _Rugendorf_, but this in the south of Germany- so
it might be of different origin.
But in ('Saxonic') Nordrhein-Westfalen I heard about locations named _Rugge_
and they indeed could denote a place of former 'rough' character.
Yet even today in our LS we could say  'Door achtern, in de ruuge Hollung,
sünd de meyrsten Fasaon!' meaning 'Down there, in the rough shallow land, is
the greatest population of pheasants!'.

> In English 'rough' can mean uncultivated ground i.e. in golf if the ball
runs off the fairway into the long grass, it goes into the rough.
Exactly the same here: *'Dat Ruu'waarks'* mainly means wild, savaged high
grass in a meadow or elsewhere.

> What other spellings of 'ruug' might there be?
Well- Ron already gave us an overview. But let me add: my favourite
spelling in my own dialect should be 'rugh', with a very uvulary _gh_
similar but even deeper than in 'van Gogh'. Its sound is rare here and
reminding at Dutch.

Let me tell you some additional words about my own experiences in
investigating old location names.
A lot of generations tried to improve and modernize the old terms- and
mostly they made something we call 'Kuddelmuddel' of it. Mainly it were the
geometricians, not familiar with local dialects, who wrote it down in their
cards. The effect often was that the natives did accept their written
denoting: letters ALWAYS tell the truth.

Some examples from my neighbourhood (which I already showed up here in
former postings):
'Nachthöfen', probably meaning something like 'next farms' became
'Achthöfen' ('eight farms') in the 18th century;
'De groute Sand', 'The great sand', became 'Krautsand', 'the sand of the
Kraut(s) ;))';
'Kaidamm', meaning 'the dike at the edge', became 'Kuhdamm' - 'the path of
the cows';
'dat Naie/Neyje' ('the newly cultured land') was transformed into any
ominous french-sounding 'Nallie/Nallje';
'Oulsede' was an 'old settlement' and became today the name 'Eulsede' which
could be translated as 'the owl's nest'.

So- don't let you discourage if you don't find the thread between the
centuries *'ad hoc'*.

Kind regards, and have a nice weekend!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.19 (05) [E]

Beste,
Ik vermoed dat Nederlands "rukken" (hevig trekken; hevig als Engels "heavy")
een intensief is van "rijgen" (wat lichter trekken), zoals bukken - buigen,
hikken - hijgen, wikken - wegen ....
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.19 (05) [E]

> From: "heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk" <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.19 (03) [D/E/Russian]

> But what I still don't understand is why the same word should be
> retained as Rugg's Place  (hard g), Ridgend ( soft 'dg') and also
> Pugh's Rough.

Is there an explanation in the fact that there are two English words
with a similar meaning - "rough" and "rugged"? Do these have to be
distinguished when considering etymologies?

The distinction between such things as "rig" (Scots) and
"ridge" (English) is well-known, the "hard" sounds being Scandinavian
influences:

English    Scots
-------    -----
bridge     brig
fridge     frig
church     kirk
shrill     skirl

and so on.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.19 (03) [D/E/Russian]

Hmm, I just had another thought. Here in Maryland, the striped bass is known
as the rockfish.  I assumed it had something to do with them being caught in
rocky areas, but now I wonder (but they're definitely not related to
skates/rays)…

Speaking of Maryland, the sailing vessels still used by some Chesapeake Bay
fishermen (especially the oystermen) are known as skipjacks, which I assume
has some Lowlands connection ('little ship'?).

Kevin Caldwell

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Kevin.

Over here you see both spellings: "orange roughy" and "orange rouffy," the
latter being more common these days, and the former being the original and
"etymologically correct" spelling.

Names for "ray (fish)" (incl. "roughy," "skate," etc.) in other languages:

Danish: *rokke*
Dutch: *roggen *
German: *Rochen
*Low Saxon: *Rochen ~ Rocken ~ Roggen*
Swedish: *rocka*
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.19 (03) [D/E/Russian]
Dear Ron:

Subject: L-Lowlands "Etymology"

Now you have me steaming at the ears.

Afrikaans, Hey!

Rug = back
Rek = to stretch
Raak = to touch
Ruk = to jerk
Rog = rye
Rig = align
Rof = rough
Ru = rough
Ry = a row & to drill (as in planting vegetables &c.)
Ryk = fertile (ground) as well as rich & so on
Roggeveld = rough country
Ruig = bushy
Bereik = to reach

Until this point it seems you can do almost everything out on the lands with
one word! But then:

Skade berokken = to wreak damage
Wreek = to commit (as in 'a crime')
Wraak = vengence as in (to 'wreak')
Wrak = a wreck (as in a ship, or perhaps 'your father's BMW'. Eina!)
Worstel = to wrestle, as in with your conscience, though when you do it to a
man you 'stooi'.
Reuk = smell
Rook = smoke

If it wasn't for the fact that I think we're squeezing the orange beyond dry
(droog druk) I'd offer these,

Roekeloos = reckless
Reken = reckon
Rak = a rack
Rok = a dress, or a ploughman's smock
Rokkie = what a Scotsman has under his belt... Hem.

I have an apprehension that in these matters ringing the changes of cognates
even inside one language, notwithstanding mutation, that there are so many
things & actions to name, & only a limited number of praaacticable
syllables. It had best be left in the hands of the boffins (That's you,
Ron).

Mind you, tickle us with this; the history of the English word for 'rug',
'back'. It must have a long history, & I would suppose Ingweronian, since
the only surviving cognates in Afrikaans that I can call to mind are:

Bakboord = larbord or portside, that being the part of him (the back) the
helsman presents to the other side of the ship. This goes     back to the
days of the steering oar, hey!
Agterbaks = the act of doing or saying something sneaky or nasty about
someone behind his back. We might have picked up this notion from the
English, the concept & the term as well, but from the construction the
latter at least seems unlikely.

Ron, this follows from your observations:
What is interesting is that these words all go back to Germanic **reugwo-* <
Indo-European **reuk-* 'to pluck', 'to reap'!

So how about the (remote) possibility of Finnic **rooko ~ *roogo* (my
reconstruction, > *roog*, *ruoko *)
In verband met "rough"

En Roland, ek het u inset darem lekker gelees.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Wow! Heather, if you thought that was the last of it you were sorely
mistaken. See what you stirred up?  ;-)

There's too much to respond to right now. So for now I'll limit it to
returning to your "Rugg's Place" (on the way to your place to claim my
quinces).

I tried to think of other British place names that have "rug..." or
"rugg..." in them. Naturally, the first I could think of was "Rugby," a
famous place the origin of whose name I expected to find some mention about.
And--lo and behold!--I did, in several places. What appears to have happened
there is that the "b" of the following "...by" (Scandinavian for
"settlement" which replaced previous "...berie" = "...bury" < "...burh" in
the 1086 Doomsday Book's "Rocheberie") caused the final vowel of the first
segment to be voices from "k" to [g]. This is what the Wikipedia says:

The name's likeliest origin is Anglo-Saxon Hrōca burh or similar = "Rook
fort", where Rook may be the birds or may be a man's name.

So it may be a person's name or the name of the crow bird called
"rook" (*Corvus
frugilegus*, Scots craw, corbie, Low Saxon Saatkrei ~  Roke ~ Rook ~ Rauke ~
Rauk, Dutch roek, Afrikaans roek, German Saatkrähe, Danish råge, Swedish
råka, Dano-Norwegian kornkråke), or both (if the person's name is derived
from it).

Now, both Rook and Rugg are known as English surnames, both of them probably
derived from men's given names.

The surname Rook (~ Rooke ~ Rookes ~ Ruck = Dutch (de) Roeck) is generally
considered derived from the bird name.

The surname Rugg (Rug ~ Rugge ~ Ruggles = German/Low Saxon Rugg ~
Ruggen ~ Ruegg
~ Rügg ~ Rück ~ Rücke) is considered derived from either Old Scandinavian or
Old French (ruge > rouge 'red') and to have meant "(the) red (one)" in
reference to either hair color or ruddy complexion.

At any rate, for now I'm putting my money on the bet that Rugg's Place has
nothing to do with ridges or backs but started off as meaning, well, "Rugg's
Place," the place of a man (and his family) called Rugg.

What do you think, Heather? Are we getting warm? Are there old established
families called Rugg in the area?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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