LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.31 (02) [E]

Sun Aug 31 14:56:29 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L - 30 August 2008 - Volume 02
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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (01) [E]

>>More importantly in Hamburg Missingsch, unlike both SG and LS, I would say
*Der is tot gegangen* ("that one has gone dead," a somewhat
>>childish-sounding equivalent of *Der is gestorben*). (The closest LS
equivalent of this seems to be *De is mit Dood afgahn* "*He* has gone off
>>with Death".)
>>
>>Reinhard/Ron

In Dutch this is a very normal construction, doodgaan ('to go dead'), 'ik ga
dood' (I'm dieing!) Van roken ga je dood (smoking kills, litt. from smoking
you go dead) etcetera; without any childish feeling to it

Greetings, Diederik

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (02) [E/LS]

It's not Missingsch but in my Lonerland Limburgish it is standard to say.

"Hië es dowd bleve".

E.g. "Hië es dowd bleve in den orlog" "He has died during the war",

almost, but not necessarely, in a sense "The war killed him"

"Blijven" is one of the verbs forming a participle without ge- suffix.

Regards,

Roger

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (02) [E/LS]

R/R wrote,

One of the reasons why I am interested in these expressions is that they
remind me very much of the use of certain verbs in the Altaic, especially
Turkic languages. (Not that I think there's a direct link, though.) Among
the Turkic ones are *qal-* ("to remain"), *kät-* ("to go") and *tart-* ("to
drag (into)") which as ordinary or auxiliary verbs come to connote resulting
permanent or temporary states, each with different shades of meaning.

And, of course, similar "grammaticalization" of these or similar terms is
found elsewhere. Japanese, for instance, has it of course: e.g. ame ga futte
kimasita. (though one MIGHT argue that Jpanese is an Altaic language ...
though I myself remain quite agnostic); even English has it (though perhaps
only as idiom): e.g. My bag went missing. Perhaps, impressionistically, go
and come are the most common, remain is still fairly common ... and drag
(into) (and similarly semantically highly specified verbs) are found only
sproadically. (That is, any specific semantic term is foudn in a few
languages, and another languages has its own peculiar verbs it choses to
use.)

PS Have just spent a marvelous week in one of the ancestral homelands (gwlad
'yn nhadau) with my wife, and now have 2 weeks plus work at UCLan, Preston
Lancashire before returning to Bombay. If I didn't know what UK weather was
like I would have thought that I brought the monsoons with me from india,
but, I think the rains were here before I came and will still be here after
I leave. Wet or not, Cymru is as beautiful as I remember from my last visit
... 27 years ago??

Mike || マイク || माईक || Мика || માઈક || მაიქ || ਮਾਈਕ || מייק || மாஇக் || ما
یک
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

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From: Soenke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (02) [E/LS]

Op Sa., den 30. Aug.'08, hett Lowlands-L List Klock 21.07 schreven:

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Usage in Missingsch of 'Der is tot geblieben' derived from Low Saxon
'He is doodbläven' 'He (has) died.'

I do know that there are quite a few sorts of Missingsch and that they are
now moribund (which makes it hard to verify many descriptions).  Also, I am
most certainly familiar with the Low Saxon expression and use it myself
(literally "He has remained dead", alternative to He is sturven 'He (has)
died' = German Er ist gestorben). However, I have never come across this
expression in any type of Missingsch or any other type of Northern German
with which I'm familiar, and I'm somewhat sceptical about the authenticity.

In Dithmarschen you may well hear "Er/Der ist totgebleiben" in normal/casual
"Standard" German conversation. But I'm not sure whether there's any type of
Missingsch involved here, it just seems to be an oral device used when
people want to avoid the full earnestness of the appropriate SG expression
"Er ist gestorben". So no question of LS, Missingsch or SG here, but one of
different registers within one language/regiolect (SG). (Of course, if you
do use "totbleiben", everybody will know that you have a connection to LS,
with all social implications.)

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (01) [E]

I have never heard "Er is tot geblieben". In High German and Missingsch,
this would sound very strange, ...

Yes, and so it did to my ears, when I first heard this expression in a
"Standard" German conversation. I asked my father whether there was a
difference between "totbleiben" and "sterben", and, after a moment of
puzzlement, he just smiled and said "Wenn een 'sterben' will, bruukt he
Abituur." (If somebody wants to 'sterben', he is required to take his
A-Levels/High School diploma), which left me with even more questions in my
then 7-9 years old head. The terms were apparently freely interchangeable to
him.

Regards,
Sönke
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