LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 18 December 2008 - Volume 04
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]



> From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]

> Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:
>
> Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to
> mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be
> distinguished everywhere.

Ron,

I don't think the idea that "this will make it easier for learners" is a
very good argument.

When I was learning Russian, for example, the fact that vowel length was
more or less random and yet not marked was a bit of a drag. I did think,
however that no Russian should have to spend every day of his life
dealing with orthographic junk that he doesn't need, just so that I can
learn the language more easily. So I was marking the length in my
vocabulary book, where's the problem in that?

When children go to school, they're already not mispronouncing their
language, so while they may be learning to read it, this isn't a problem
for them.

When it comes to foreign learners, if they can't be bothered with such
difficulties, then they'd never learn the language properly anyway. If
they really want to learn, then it's all part of the experience.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Sandy,

In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners" everyone that
learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language learner or a
native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native orthography is
inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a secondary system
needs to be utilized in any reference work worth consulting.

In the case of English dictionaries, good encyclopedias and textbooks, some
sort of auxiliary phonetic script is used in addition to regular spelling of
a key word. The English Wikipedia only does this in cases of rarely
occurring names. So you need to consult other dictionaries if you do not
know the pronunciation of a given word.

In better Russian reference works, main stress is marked in all key words or
otherwise newly introduced words and expressions, since Russian stress
assignment is not consistently predictable. Fortunately, the Russian
Wikipedia people follow this tradition of using accent marks in key words.
The same can be said of the Ukrainian edition. One Belarusian edition does
it inconsistently and the other does not do it at all.

The German Wikipedia uses no system to indicate phonological detail, not
even where stress and vowel length are not predictable. (Bear in mind that
German stress and vowel length are not always predictable.) It only gives
the foreign pronunciation in cases of foreign words and names. The same
applies to the Latvian, Lithuanian, Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian editions
in which stress and tones are never indicated, although they are indicated
in better dictionaries and encyclopedias for these languages.

No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
regular orthography does all that is required to know the pronunciation,
unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is the case for instance
in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

Stress is largely predictable in Low Saxon. Furthermore, the foremost
systems indicate vowel length. So, whichever of the more used systems you
use, the system is in fact someone superior in this regard to the German
system. There is only the issue of distinguishing certain diphthongs from
long monophthongs where the "casual" variants of the writing systems do not
distinguish them. The systems proposed and widely used in Germany do come
with devices to make the distinctions, and the creator recommended using
them, which is what better dictionary do. While I would like to see them
used everywhere, my point is that reference and teaching materials at the
very least ought to use these devices, since they are supposed to be
resources that are consulted by "learners," however you define this word.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

•

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