LL-L "Etymology" 2008.02.01 (04) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  31 January 2008 - Volume 04
=========================================================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.02.01 (04) [D/E]

On 01.02.2008, at 17:34, Ron/ Reinard wrote:

> Theo, if I didn't know that Ramanke is specific to Low Saxon of
> Osnabrück (Joachim's "Osna-Saxon"), I'd have sworn it was of Slavic
> origin. I really don't know where those Osna-Saxons got this.

Hey! Ron un alle,

I don't know neither. But according to my Klöntrup Dictionary (1824)
it means not exactly the "German Steckrübe, Dutch koolraap, Low Saxon
Wruck" engl. rutabage, as you wrote before. But:

"Ramanken
ein Gericht von allerley Gemüse durcheinander, das den Bauch füllt,
aber wenig Nahrung gibt"
(a dish of sundry / all kinds of vegetables muddled, that fills the
stomach but gives few nutricion)

> Could it have something to do with Rome and Roman (or Waals), with
> the -ke diminutive (as if Dutch *romeinke ~ *romeintje)? (Brilliant
> or off the rocker again?)

Because of the meaning of durcheinander/muddled I would rather seek a
relation to Osnasaxon "mank", "mank ander" (untereinander/muddled
mixed-up).

The syllable "ra" could come from Osn. "rahe, rae [de, dat] der, die,
das rothe" engl. the red (colour), perhaps because of "Rautkaul" (red
cabbage) and engl. beetroot within the "Ramanken". But this is rather
hypothetically said.

BTW, waarvan hest du dan dat Waart "Ramanke" van af?

Goutgaun!
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Nice, Joachim! Thanks.

I found *Ramanken* in a couple of dictionaries, also online (
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanken).

It seems that in your ancestral area rutabagas are the "mix vege" *par
excellence*. I'm now starting to suspect that *Ramanken* comes from **
raab-mank-en* (related to English "rape," German *Raps* and the various
Dutch combinations with *raap*; cf. Dutch *koolraap* for *Ramanke*). *

Mank* < *mang* is used all over the language and is related to English
"among" and German *Menge*, also Low Saxon *mengeln* and *mengeleyren* 'to
mix'. It goes back to Indo-European **men(e)gh* ~ **mon(e)gh* 'plenty',
'bountiful', 'provide (bountifully)', also appears to be related to the
group "many," German *manch*, Low Saxon *mennig*, etc. It is -- and now pay
attention! -- also related to Old Saxon *mangon* 'to deal (with)', 'to
trade', 'to barter', and I do use the modern reflexive verb *bemengen *'to
deal with' (e.g., *Ik bemeng my geyrn mit spraken* 'I like dealing with
languages'). It seems to me then that there is a semantic side channel that
uses this word group in the sense of 'dealing' and possibly 'wares',
'goods', 'merchandise', 'trade', thus related to German *Menge* 'amount',
'assemblage', 'mass', 'batch', etc.

So **raab-mang-en* may be something like *"raap produce," namely along the
morphological lines of German *Grünwaren* ("green wares") 'greengrocer's
wares', 'produce'. Low Saxon has *groynwaren* (*Gröönwaren*, in the same
way), *groynsaken* (*Gröönsaken* "green things" > Danish *grøntsager*,
Norwegian *gr**øn(n)saker*, Swedish* grönsaker*) and *groyntuyg* (*Gr**ööntü
**üg,** Gr**ööntü**üch** *"green stuff," cf. Yiddish גרינצייג *grintsayg*)
for 'vegetables" in general, where German has *Gem**üse* ("matter for
mashing and mixing"). Cf. Low Saxon *mangmous'* (*Mangmoos*, "*mang*-mix/mash")
for '(odd) mix', '(eclectic) collection' (*mous* being related to French *
mousse* I assume).

What do you say? Brilliant? Off the rocker? Or both?

Goudgaan!

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Sorry about the misdirected message. My Yahoo account is being silly
today, and I blame Microsoft's takeover attempts. So there. The poor little
Yahoo is afraid!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20080201/9091aa62/attachment.htm>