LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.28 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  28 January 2008 - Volume 05
=========================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.28 (04) [D/E]

Hi all,

Why the crimson, Mark? I almost got the feeling there that you were enjoying
yourself :-)

Paul, I would say that 'moewiese' probably developed in the late 1990's /
early 2000s amongst
school going children.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
----------

From: Gary Davenport <gldavenport at student.ysu.edu>
Subject: Etymology -- Wife

Dear Lowlanders:
I am interested in the use of cognates of the the English word *wife* in the
Germanic languages, Lowlands here specifically. For instance, German retains
*Weib, *while Dutch retains ***jf* (a pejorative if I understand correctly)
and the OED2 lists cognates for O. Frisian and O. Saxon (*wif*). I haven't
found any data on modern Frisian, Plattdeutsch, or other Lowlandic cognates
or usage, however.

What are your personal experiences with it? Do you use it in your language
everyday? Or only archaically or poetically? What connotation does it carry?

With regards,
Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Gary!

In Modern Low Saxon on the German side, the singular form is conventionally
spelled *Wief* (pronounced [vi:f]) and the plural form *Wiever* (['vi:v3`])
or *Wieber* (['vi:b3`]), depending on if you are dealing with a -v- dialect
or a -b- dialect. The plural can also be *Wiefslüüd'* with
*-lüüd'*(['vi:fsly:.(d)] <
*-lüde* being this "-folk" thing again, as in English "womenfolk").

Now, you must bear in mind that those that devised the German-based
conventional albeit unofficial spelling systems were amateurs, at least to
today's standards. They didn't quite understand the concepts of "phoneme"
and "allophone," and in this instance they didn't even get the hint on the
basis of German *Weib* [vaɪp] - *Weiber* ['vaɪbɚ]. Like pretty much all
Continental Germanic languages, Low Saxon has the rule of final devoicing
(often called *Verhärtung* "hardening" in German). So, from a phonological
point of view the spelling should be *Wiev*, *Wiever* and
*Wievslü**üd'*respectively. A similar misunderstanding happened in
Dutch and Frisian, to
name but two example, in Dutch also with regard to /z/ (e.g. *huis* [hœʏs] *
huizen* ['hœʏzə] 'houses', which for the sake of consitency out to be
written *huiz* [hœʏs] and *huizen* ['hœʏzə] respectively, similarly
*dief*[di:f] 'thief' v
*dieven* ['di:və] 'thieves' (which ought to be *diev* <> *dieven*).
Interestingly, whenever you point this out, even adequately trained and
certain bright North Germans and Dutch speakers reject this. They know it's
weird and is a flaw, an inconsistency when compared with non-fricatives (e.g.
*rood* [ro:t] 'red (one)' <> *rode* ['ro:də] 'red (ones)' - which would be *
*root* <> **rode* if the above inconsistency applies. But most of them
defend it, if not for the excuse that being consistent with "v" and "z"
would look weird (because they are not used to it) then for the excuse that
the general public wouldn't stand for it (again because they are not used to
it).

As you can see, English is a mixed bag: it used to have the same rule and
retains it for certain words whose stems end with a fricative (e.g. "wife"
<> "wives", "thief" <> "thieves"). But by and large it has lost final
devoices (more so than Scots), most likely in the wake of one-time Old
Danish and Norman French domination.

This is a big topic of the "Orthography" category.

So back to your question:

   - Low Saxon has singular *Wief* (which ought to be spelled *Wiev*) and
   plural *Wiever*.
   - If these words are not obviously meant to to be archaic sounding
   (such as in old tales where they can mean 'woman' or 'wife' and their plural
   equivalents) they are meant in a derogatory way. To use it for 'wife' or
   'woman' in a modern context tends to be offensive, usually is, coming with
   connotations like "despicable," "obnoxious," "pestering," "bossy," "mean"
   and so forth. To be on the safe side, always use *Frou* [fro.ʊ] ~ [fre
   ˑʊ], *Fru* [fru:] or *Fruug'* [fru:ˑγ] instead.

In Middle Saxon (the lingua franca of the Hanseatic Trading League, the
normal words were singular *wyf* ~ *wyff* and plural *wyver* which I assume
were pronounced as they are today: [vi:f] <> ['vi:vər] ~ ['vi:vɝ]. (You'll
find *wyff* in my Middle Saxon translation of the wren story, also with
sound (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/sassysch-roman.php -- again with
cursor pointing for gloss reveal).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20080128/7843ad93/attachment.htm>