LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.30 (01) [D/E/N]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 January 2008 - Volume 01
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.29 (03) [D/E]

Hoi! Wordt deze groet ook in Vlaanderen gebruikt? Dat wist ik niet, ik
dacht dat het typisch (Noord-) Nederlands was. Trouwens, in het noorden
van Nederland wordt "hoi" ook als afscheidsgroet gebruikt in de zin van
tot ziens. Dit was 30 jaar terug al zo, maar de laatste jaren lijkt dit
gebruik zich uit te breiden naar de Randstad, met name onder radio-
presentatoren van pop-zenders kun je het vaak horen.

"Weef", om je vraag te beantwoorden, lijkt me gewoon een vorm van "weeuw"
met verscherpte -f, dit zou ook van een meervoud weven uit weeuwen
verklaard kunnen worden, dat weer van "weduwen" komt. Of het is een
afkorting van we(d)uwvrouw, wat ook de -f verklaart. Er staat mij ook een
woord "wedevrouw" bij. Maar dat zou iemand in een etymologisch woordenboek
moeten opzoeken, dit zijn allemaal mijn eigen ideeën.
Met "wijf" heeft het oorspronkelijk geen relatie, al kan het er wel door
beïnvloed zijn, in de zin van rijm: wijf en weef.

Hoi, Ingmar

Frank Verhoft schreef:

Hoi,

Ik vraag me een beetje af hoe het (oude?) woord 'weef' (=weduwe) in het
rijtje 'wijf', 'wuuf', 'wuve' etc. past.

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.29 (03) [D/E]

>From: Frank <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
>Subject: Etymology

>Ik vraag me een beetje af hoe het (oude?) >woord
'weef' (=weduwe) in het >rijtje 'wijf', 'wuuf', 'wuve'
etc. past.
>Alvast bedankt.
>Groetjes,
>Frank Verhoft

Hoi,

Dit past ook niet in het rijtje.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.29 (03) [D/E]

>>From: Frank <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
>>Subject: Etymology
>>
 >>Hoi,
>>
>>Ik vraag me een beetje af hoe het (oude?) woord 'weef' (=weduwe) in het
rijtje 'wijf', 'wuuf', 'wuve' etc. past.
>>
>>
>>Alvast bedankt.
>>
>>Groetjes,
>>
>>Frank Verhoft


Ik weet niet in welke dialecten deze vorm nog bestaat, maar uit het
oud-Antwerps zijn ze mij in ieder geval (schriftelijk) bekend, 'weef' en
'wevenèr (wevenaar)'.

Met 'wijf' heeft dit niets te maken: het is hetzelfde woord als
'weduw(e)(naar)', maar dan erg verkort. Eerst valt de -d- weg, zoals in
'weder = weer' en 'veder = veer" en vele andere. En een -w op het einde van
een woord wordt ook soms/vaak een -f/v: net zoals in het Antwerps 'nieuw'
tot 'nief' wordt, is 'weduw' = 'weeuw' = 'weef' geworden.
En weduwe gaat dan weer terug op
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=widow&searchmode=none

Diederik

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" [e/n)

Colleagues

A while since I've been on LLs but I was interested in
the discussion over the use and variations of 'wife'
or woman and man in other languages.

In Northumbrian, the Anglo-Saxon usage of 'wife'
meaning a 'woman' is still used. Instead of saying
'did you see that woman over there', you'd say in
Northumbrian 'did yi see thet wife ower theor'. Often
if someone refers to an 'old woman', people in
Northumberland will use the phrase 'ad wifie' instead.

On Ron's point earlier about the Scots word 'gadgie'
for man, it is also used in Northumberland but is
usually used to refer to an 'old man', in other words
we'd say 'ad gadgie'.

Keep ahaad
Glenn Simpson

Exactly the same as in Dutch, those Afrikaans
examples. Dutch:
Die vrouw schreeuwt als een viswijf.
"wijffie" is colloquial Dutch used in the same way as
you say in
Afrikaans, it's Hollandic, hence the -ie instead of
-je diminutive.
And a "wijfje" is a female animal: het wijfje van de
spin maakt het
mannetje dood na de paring.

Ingmar

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Wot cheor, Glenn!

Canny te heor frem ye agyen, marra, an te knaa ye're still wiv us an keekin
in. Weor hev ye beon? Ye areet?

Now that you mentioned the use of "gadgie" in the sense of "old man," I
started wondering about "(old) codger." Apparently, the etymology of this
isn't totally certain, according to the *Oxford English Dictionary*. It may
be a dialectical variant of "cadger," a "carrier," an itinerant dealer that
travels with horse and cart, apparently from "to cadge," which some believe
to be related to "to catch." But "codger" may also come from a different
source, having the meaning "testy, crusty old fellow." However, in some
earlier literature it refers to "pedlar," "tramp" or "beggar" as well, so
there may at least be some convergence with "cadger" at least. Could
"gadgie" have fed into it as well?

And then there is "geezer" (~ "geeser" ~ "guyser") for a man (nowadays
usually an old man), which is believed to be related to "guiser," namely a
mummer or masquerader. What might the semantic significance of this be? A
scary-looking guy? A fright? Its earliest appearance in writing in the sense
of "mummer" is in 15th-century Scots: *Item, in Lannerik, to dansaris and
gysaris, xxxvis* (1488).

As for the word group "widow," I used to assume that it can still be
analyzed as a compound, in part because in Low Saxon we say *Wittfro ~
Wittfru ~ Wetfro ~ Wetfru* etc., thus *wit-*woman. (Middle Saxon still had *
weduwe* and *wedewe*, though.) However, this appears to be a very old word *in
toto*. Sanskrit already has विधवा *vidhavā* for "widow'! Sanskrit विध् *vidh
* means 'lacking' or 'destitute', thus 'bereft', which is related to Latin *
dīvidere *'divide' and *viduus* 'void', 'bereft', 'widowed' (fem. *vidua*).
And then there are Old Prussian (Baltic) *widdewu*, Old Slavonic **вьдова
vĭdova* (> Russian* **вдова vdova*), Welsh (Celtic) *gweddw*, Cornish
(Celtic) *guedeu*, Old Irish (Celtic) *fedb*, all for 'widow'. So you can't
etymologize this word within Germanic, because it's older than the group.

I assume that *weew* is a contraction of **wedewe*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.29 (03) [D/E]

Hoi Diederik

I thought "griet" and "gast" would be typical for North Netherlands Dutch,
not that of Flanders (Belgium), but you use it at well, I now see. Cool.

Something I always stroke me as funny is the North Brabant expression:
"mens" lit. human being, in the sense of husband, in Dutch just "man".

Noord-Brabants:
daor hedde Sjaan durre mens

Standaard Dutch:
daar is Jeannes man

Gruessli,
Ingmar

Diederik Masure schreef:

Wijf: funnily enough the West-Flemish form with /uu/ seems to be more
popular around here than the /ij/ nowadays, especially amongst students.
It's not uncommon of my friends to ask me how it's going with "de wuvves",
for example;
Kerel: also seems to have (re?)gained use in slang, as equivalent for Engl.
"dude". A (cool) guy addresses his guy friend often with "ej kerel"; much
alike the use of "gast". In 5th-6th grade in highschool we usually said
"kerel joenge gast!" when someone had done/said something stupid or so.
Vent: the traditional word for "man", which in dialect is scarcely used.
Nowadays "man" is getting into the language, but its position is not as
strong as "vrouw" for "wijf" (maybe because 'vulgarity' is more accepted
when concerning men than when talking about women). Vent [vINt] /vengt/ is
still quite normal among people in informal situations who don't care that
much about sounding 'correct' and speaking standard language. Or used
'gekscherend' as Roland called it: talking about "x eure vengt" has a
different and more humorous connotation than "x are man" (x's husband).

In my 'humorous'/dialect/slang register, the world is divided into "vente"
and "kerels" on the one side, and "wijve" and "griete" on the other. But as
with "wijf", also my use of "griet" gets commented on uniformally. (the
first of the 2 always referring to the older specimens, kerel/griet to a
person in the same age-group)
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