LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.05 (02) [E/LS]

Sat Jul 5 16:04:32 UTC 2008

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.04 (06) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

> Subject: Language politics
>
> Marcus,
>
> Are your worries keeping you awake? You should be asleep right now where
> you are.
>
> Oh, come on now! I was being sarcastic -- obviously. I wouldn't be "making
> fun" of your worries if I shared them and were convinced that you indeed
> lack talent. Well, I have news for you: I don't.
>
Man, I really thought: "Yeah, he finally got the point", when you said
"convinced that you indeed lack talent" and then you say "I don't". That's
not okay!

;-)

Marcus Buck
(and still awake)

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.05 (01) [E]

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL <mailto:
ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.04 (05) [E]
>
> Hi Marcus e.a, the numbers of Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands seem
> to be completely different from those of Germany you gave.
>
> Of the inhabitants in the Low Saxon areas of the Netherlands,
>
> 64,4%  between 18 and 39 yrs old know LS, and 38,5% good or very good
> 66,9% between 40 and 60 yrs old know LS, and 52,4% good or very good
> 70,1& over 60 years know LS, and 55,7% good or very good
>
> according to Henk Bloemhoff's "Taaltelling Nedersaksisch - Een enquête
> naar het gebruik en de beheersing van het Nedersaksisch in Nederland"
> Groningen/Oldeberkoop 2005.
>
> But in the same book there is a table "Dialektkompetenz bezüglich des
> Niederdeutschen (Alte Bundesländer)" about competence in Low Saxon in
> Germany, that gives much higher percentages than your 14,3 %:
>
> Schleswig-Holstein:   sehr gut/gut 47%
>                     ein wenig    21%
> Hamburg:              sehr gut/gut 29%
>                     ein wenig    26%
> Niedersachsen/Bremen: sehr gut/gut 53%
>                     ein wenig    20%
> Südniedersachsen:     sehr gut/gut 27%
>                     ein wenig    17%
> Nord-NRW:             sehr gut/gut 27%
>                     ein wenig    22%
>
> Source: Niebaum & Macha 1999, based on Stellmacher 1987
>
> So the situation seems to be not so bad as it seems for LS ;-)
>
Yes, I was aware, that the numbers in the Netherlands most likely would be
higher than in Germany. But I had no exact numbers and choose it would be
better to underestimate than to overestimate.

Your numbers are based on Stellmacher 1987, which is based on the 1984 GETAS
survey. They had a total number of 35% speakers of Low Saxon for the whole
language area. But since then more than 20 years went by ... Well, life
expectancy is around 80 years. That means, in 20 years roundabout 25% of the
population dies. The number of speakers went down 21%. That's the state of
language maintenance... It's sad.
I guess, if nothing changes, the number of speakers will be around 5% in
twenty years and in 40 years less than 1%. In 60 years (I will be 85 then)
most likely it will be possible to invite all remaining competent speakers
to have a coffee klatsch with Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte. Ah, perhaps in 60
some more will be left, could be too many for a coffee klatsch. But for my
100th birthday, I will invite them all ;-)

Also, miene leben Plattsnackers hier op de List: Ji sünd all recht vun
Harten inloodt för den 9. August 2082, Klock dree, to Kaffee un Koken. Wo:
ik hööp doch in Brobargen, wenn mi dat good geit un miene Urinkels den olen
Tüünbüdel, de in eensen to bi sik sülben in Tungen sprickt, nich in't Heim
afschoben hebbt. Wenn se mi doch afgeben hebbt (oder Brobargen 2082 al dree
Meter ünner de See liggt), denn geev ik to rechte Tied noch we'er bescheed,
woneem dat ween schall.
Glieks indrogen in'n Klenner! Nich, dat ji noch en tweten Termin annehmt.
Rechtiedig noog inloodt heff ik!

(Wenn de Forschers 2013 den Slötel to dat ewige Leben opdecken doot, denn
heff ik en Platzproblem ;-) )

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Heiko.evermann at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.05 (01) [E]

Hi Ingmar,
> But in the same book there is a table "Dialektkompetenz bezüglich des
> Niederdeutschen (Alte Bundesländer)" about competence in Low Saxon in
> Germany, that gives much higher percentages than your 14,3 %:
>
> Schleswig-Holstein:   sehr gut/gut 47%
>                      ein wenig    21%
> Hamburg:              sehr gut/gut 29%
>                      ein wenig    26%
> Niedersachsen/Bremen: sehr gut/gut 53%
>                      ein wenig    20%
> Südniedersachsen:     sehr gut/gut 27%
>                      ein wenig    17%
> Nord-NRW:             sehr gut/gut 27%
>                      ein wenig    22%
I am working in Tornesch in Schleswig-Holstein. All of my team knows of my
interest in Low Saxon. But none of them can speak it.The closest is the
daughter of one of my team (whom I have never met). She took part in a local
Low Saxon theater group, but this was largely due to her boyfriend of that
time. After they split, she did not continue. She did her role well, but she
never spoke the language.

When I count at least 15 workmates with whom I have closer contact, the
chances are odd that there is no one who can speak LS, if 47% of them should
be able to do so according to your statistic.

Quite a number of people claim that they can understand Low Saxon and quite
a
number of them are able to follow the Ohnsorg Theater to some extent, but
when you test them by asking for the LS equivalent of German words, they
usually fail when it goes beyond simple words like
ich/ik, Pferd/Peerd.

In short: I do not believe that the numbers you give are correct.

Heiko
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