LL-L "Comprehension" 2008.07.08 (02) [E]

Tue Jul 8 15:34:46 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 08 July 2008 - Volume 02
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Comprehension" 2008.07.07 (03) [E]

 Beste Lowlanners, Theo, Heather and Paul (Finlow-Bates),

you wrote about 'average' English native people's ability to read old
English texts, and Heather and Paul made a kind of chronological
'classification' around it.
This is very interesting for me, because it would fit to old German texts
(Middle Low Saxon/Middle High German in this case; 13th-16th c.) as well.
Even if you haven't to deal with handwritten original documents but with
ones meanwhile transcribed into modern letters you have to be aware of a lot
of mistakes which the former transcribers have made. So, if you want
to produce a really exact translation you'll always have to keep in your
mind that you mostly cannot be absolutely sure in every detail.
Very helpful for me is comparison with texts sharing similar matters,
without containing too much Latin and vague, empty phrases. 'Official'
documents, dealing with the 'Obrigkeit', i.e. with regional authorities or
governors, mostly are filled with this kind of stuff, whilst for example
documents of the Hanse are much clearer and simpler; they intended a
'normal' tradesman to be able to read and understand them.
An additional problem is the fact that there hadn't been an official
spelling system in that time, and another one, that the writers often
weren't very well educated.

But, what both of you, Heather and Paul, mentioned about the fact that some
knowledge in German could be helpful to understand older English texts for
native Englishmen  is valid as well for me as a native German: my knowledge
of English, too, helps a lot. And, Theo, this might be interesting for you:
often I found out that Dutch words solved the problem, though my knowledge
concerning Dutch is on a very low level.
I fully agree with Heather: to be polyglot within the Ingvaeonic family,
assisted by some Latin and old Greek, is very helpful, as well as the
blessing of the WWW, in special being member of LL-L - don't you think so,
myn Reginhard ;-)?!

(BTW: Heather, that's a nice hobby for dark winter evenings, to take part in
a palaeographic class. I'd wish we had any comparable project in our region!
An extended knowledge of local coherences, completed with those above
mentioned [modern] possibilities sometimes can lead to interesting and new
views of regional history.)

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Comprehension

Hi, Jonny and everyone!

I quite agree with your assessment, Jonny.
Low Saxon
I even wonder if North Germans that have at least passive comprehension
skills have an advantage studying Modern English, at least to start off
with, and at least so in the olden days when teaching methods weren't too
good. For people that don't actually know about phonological shifts it is
less of a leap from Low Saxon to English than directly from German to
English. Experience with earlier forms of English also vastly improved my
reading comprehension in earlier forms of Saxon and German.

Dutch and Afrikaans are easiest for me, at least on the formally written
level. The only difficulties I have are with certain early, nativized
loanwords (in the case of Afrikaans especially Southern-Africa-specific
vocabulary) and with various idiomatic expressions that bear no resemblance
to expressions in related languages.

Knowing German and Low Saxon, even if only modern forms, comes in very handy
when you delve into Middle and Old English. I once did so with only native
English speakers as my classmates, and I had by far the easiest time. Or was
this only because I'm weird? Because of this I had keen awareness of
historical linguistic processes before I formally studied them, and that
included processes that others did not grasp intuitively. Crossing language
lines at the old stages seems particularly easy if you have learned to read
one of them, since differences were not as pronounced then as they are
today.

So there is indeed something to be said for not only visiting today's
neighbors beyond fences and ponds, and this is what we are doing here on a
daily basis. At the very least it helps you see your own yard in a clearer
light and to appreciate it more than you would otherwise do. But there's
also a lot to be said for going through ancestral albums, because they make
you understand today more clearly. The two go hand in hand, enhance each
other.

I also agree that Hanseatic documents are comparatively easy to read among
Middle Saxon ones, because of the very straightforwardness you mentioned,
Jonny. Aside from the customary greetings at the beginning and end, those
merchants were not in the business of cluttering their letters and records
with vague pleasantries. Furthermore, they were using an international
lingua franca, many as a foreign language, so there may have been a
simplification factor. I also find Middle Saxon poetic works with intended
popular appeal easy to read, a good example being *Reynard de vos* (Reynard
the Fox).

When I grew up people used to say that bothering with dead languages,
including past varieties, is a waste of time. I beg to differ. I find it a
very worthwhile exercise on various levels -- all the better if it allows
you to read historical documents that are of interest to you other than
linguistic utility.

So, yes, I agree that Heather's paleography class is a great thing. Jonny,
so there isn't such a thing where you are. How about you starting one? First
of all, I know that you have the ability. Secondly, you could organize it as
a paleographic exercise or research circle in which no one is the
instructor, in which people just stick their heads together and help each
other along. Some of my best group study sessions were of this type. "If you
build it they will come." Lots of people are interested in local and
regional history, not to mention family history research. Who knows what
sorts of treasures some people are sitting on not knowing what to do with
them? Also, you could recruit your local librarian(s) to help with research
location and with cataloging your translations and findings. Some local
administration might provide a venue or even some funding.

And, yes, I owe you my part of our current project, and several people are
waiting for my email replies. I haven't forgotten, but I've been swamped
with "stuff," and the recent hot weather hasn't helped my productivity.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

•

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