LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 June 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]

Leve Lowlanders,

The area around Eupen-Maastricht-Liege-Aachen is linguistically indeed very
interesting and very confusing including the curious existence of Neutral
Moresnet which was a virtually independent country for almost hundred years,
remnants are still found as e.g  at the three-country-point near Vaals where
the border lines drawn on the ground still mark the border of former Neutral
Moresnet and the street leading to the three -country-point in Vaals is
still called Viergrensenweg. Since it is linguistically accepted that those
dialects north of the Benrath line are to be categorized as Dutch this again
raises more queston because those dialects in Moenchengladbach (Jlabbaeck)
Neuss (Nuess) and above all Duesseldorf (excl. Benrath) are to be considered
Dutch, thus Lowlands. Kirchroeds (Kerkrade dialect) would be considered
non-Lowlands. But culturally the people in Duesseldorf and Nuess would not
really consider themselfs Dutch, they culturally are much more orientated to
Ripurarian Cologne for obvious geographical reasons, whose dialect they
understand without a problem. Then again, traditionally the people from
Jlabbaeck have no difficulties to understand a dialect speaker from
Roermond, which anyone from Cologne will probably not understand. So where
do you draw the border? The answer is: you cannot!  There is a very
interesting article concering the Franconian language which rejects the idea
to split the now called Low Franconian dialects from Ripurarian and include
them to the Dutch and Low Saxon dialects. It is by Friedrcih Engels (that
very Engels who co-authored "Das Kapital" among others) who argues for
Franconian consciousness apart from German and Dutch from the Panningen line
all the way to the Speyer line. It is available in German under

http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me19/me19_474.htm#Kap_III.

He has got a point just as much as Wenker and Frings have a point. I indeed
believe to divide the northern Rhineland and Limburg into German and Dutch
is almost as impossible as it is to divide Brussels and surroundings into
Wallon and Flemish, both exist next to each other and among each other.

Groeten vun

Helge

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Helge!

Thanks for this very interesting piece! (Not that any of your previous
pieces weren't very interesting as well.)

In even trying to divide or rather classify, especially in an area so
confusingly transitional, I don't think it is expedient to use large
categories that on top of it coincide with national labels: Dutch versus
German. Psychologically alone these categories bring up distortions if you
use them in surveys and proposals -- knee-jerk reactions connected with
national loyalty and historical scars. This would definitely be the case if
you referred to Low Saxon of the Netherlands as a subcategory of "German."
And if you go that far, you might was well consider all Low Franconian
varieties German, which some do, but which is not well received by many.

In discussions about language classification, I would use "Low Franconian"
(or "Low Frankish") instead of "Dutch," and "Low Saxon" for all
Old-Saxon-derived varieties. You might say "Netherlandic" instead of "Low
Franconian," as some do with reference to the cultures of the area that is
now Belgium, the Netherlands and Flemish France.

(I personally use "German" for the varieties other than "Low ...", and I
think there is something to be said for the proposal to consider them "South
Germanic" rather than considering them a group within West Germanic.)

I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian varieties
from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

•

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