LL-L "Language use" 2008.03.19 (02) [D/E/LS]

Wed Mar 19 15:34:13 UTC 2008

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.03.19 (01) [E/LS]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.03.18 (04) [E/LS]

[...]
Bi Plattpartu.de <http://plattpartu.de/> heff ik Computerlehrünnerlagen to
Mainstream-Programme in Platt bröcht, för de een
annerwegens Geld betahlen mutt, de dat hier avers
ümsüss gifft. [...]

Ja, Marloe,

Dank je wel. Dank je wel.

Voor het Rode Kruis moet ik Excel gebruiken.
En Excel had ik sinds 1998 niet meer gebruikt.
Maar met jouw gratis kursus weet ik het weer.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.03.18 (04) [E/LS]

Disclaimer: This post provides few "hard facts" and much personal
opinion of mine. If you are not interested in my personal quarrels with
reality, please save some minutes of your live and don't read it ;-)

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
>
> In a nutshell, what I meant was that release from confinement is
> needed, in _all_ direction, not only in unconventional and
> "sophisticated" (/anspruchsvolle/) art but also in pop culture and
> everyday spheres. And for all I care those that like it can continue
> the /Heimattümelei/ tradition.
Even if you say, you accept it, please don't use the word
"Heimattümelei". The leftists (I frankly admit, that I don't like
leftists. I admire the theories of Marx and share many left ideas, but I
accept neither the socialist or communist systems as implemented in any
country ever nor todays leftists with their ideas of egality which don't
source in human rights but in opposition to Nazistic ideas [immigration
is great! Why? Cause it angers the Neo-Nazis!]) who embroadened the use
of the word "Heimattümelei" and hence connecting "Heimatverbundenheit"
and maintenance of values and culture with Nazism. Think of the the
expellees from former eastern Germany. For 60 years they advocated to be
allowed to reenter their "Heimat". Okay, it's illusory to think there
would be any chance to change anything about it after 60 years, but it
was realistic in the beginning and I can't resent that they are still
discontent. If I had to leave my heimat forever, knowing, that after I
leave, this heimat will cease to exist, I would be unhappy too for all
the rest of my life. Still, if "expellees from the former German east"
are mentioned publicly, the phantom thought of Nazism does emerge
somewhere back in the minds. In public opinion the concepts "expellees"
and "Nazism" are intertwined. The opinion research center Allensbach
recently made a public opinion poll about "Which dialects do you like to
hear most and which don't you like at all" (I reported about it in my
personal Platt blog or Plog too <http://opplatt.blogspot.com/>). Despite
the fact, that few of the answering people will have heard any eastern
dialects in recent time, all the eastern dialects which were included in
the poll (Pommersch, Schlesisch, Ostpreußisch) had more dislikers than
likers. <http://www.ifd-allensbach.de/pdf/prd_0804.pdf>
Or think of "Trachten". In German public opinion "Tracht" is connected
to "Volksmusik", to "villagers" and that's all the same just regarded
"backwards". Lagged behind a hundred years. Of course it is! Nobody
would argue, that a medieval market is "backwards" or "lagged behind".
medieval markets are "cool". So why is a part of history hat people
still can remember backwards, but a part of history from far away "dark
ages" cool? It's just a difference in the image in public opinion. (I
speak of public opinion and the opinion leaders in media. The "real"
opinion of most of the "non opinion leaders" is more balanced actually)
If wanting to keep up your heimat, your heimat language, your heimat
culture is connected to Nazism there is few chance to keep up Low Saxon.
Lot's of sermon on a little word ;-)
> "Ordinary" and "popular" is important; I'm all with you there. But
> "sophisticated" is also needed for the sake of image and for the sake
> of stretching and experimenting. Most people have been led to believe
> that the language is too lowly to be a "world literature language,"
> something that is quite wrong. A real language ought to be allowed and
> able to dance at all balls and to all manner of music.
>
> You are quite right. Use in areas of mass appeal is a very good way of
> popularization. But why only have one tune? Where there's pop, rock
> and country music, why not also have classical music, /koto /music and
> African drums? Besides popularizing, we also need to demonstrate
> variety. Otherwise you end up with another box, just a different color
> one. Enough with the boxes! Open the lids and let it fly wherever it may!
Of course, when I advocated to give up writing Haikus or Wikipedia or
Shakespeare, I don't really meant to say "Give it up!" ;-) But when
there is some Shakespeare, some Haikus and some Wikipedia in Low Saxon,
there is no modern popular culture at all. Perhaps I should have said:
Keep on with Shakespeare, Haikus and Wikipedia in Low Saxon and stop
wasting your time with "friends", "family" or "sleeping all night long"!
Invest it into doing more Shakespeare, more Haikus, more Wikipedia and
additionally some popular culture in Low Saxon! ;-)

I am by the way a bit ambiguous about African drums ;-) I love original
African music and all kinds of "real" folk music, music that is embedded
in a centuries old cultural tradition (I recently found a nice site with
Lushnu [language of {Caucasian} Georgia] songs, great, just great), but
I actually don't like those dread-lock, pod-smoking
Hippies/Greenies/tree-huggers (whatever may be the most fitting term for
German "Alternative") who do drum concerts against the G8 meetup or
whatever. That's just "Hey look, I am so much appreciating foreign
non-mainstream cultures, but I don't give a tinker's damn on my own
culture!"
I am a fan of letting everybody do his own job. Let the Africans do the
African music/culture etc. and let the Saxons do the Saxon things. This
does not mean you can't enjoy the others culture and I don't want to
forbid references or cultural transfers, but you have to keep your own
distinctive culture. At the moment at least there is a tendency of
merging all the cultures into a world culture (which will obviously be
led by the American culture).
My concecpt of "keeping the cultures apart and enjoy their
distinctiveness" is actually not new... I am afraid. "Ethnopluralism"
sounds like a nice word, doesn't it? But if you look it up on Wikipedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnopluralism> it says, the concept is
connected to far right politics. And once again I am connected to Nazism
only cause I want to keep up my own culture. This is not fair! I am not
evil! I don't hate anybody! (not even the leftists who want to peg me as
Nazi ;-) ) I like all cultures! I only want to take measures to assure,
that I (and others) can still enjoy Lushnu music or original African
drum music or Low Saxon poems in 50, 100 or 200 years from now. Cause if
we don't take any measures, Lushnu maybe will be extinct and replaced by
Georgian. Low Saxon by German and the people of the Bata tribe won't do
the drums but will wear baseball caps and hear the music of the American
ghetto gangster rappers of the future (who of course won't live in the
ghettos, but in luxurious mansions in gated communities).

I am actually not involved in Low Saxon, cause I love Low Saxon in the
first way (I do, but this is only the second most important reason), but
I took a detour. I love cultural diversity. Diversity of original
culture. And cause Low Saxon language and culture was the only one to
which I can claim any nativeness (besides Standard German language and
culture, but engaging in that is too mainstream to have an effect on
cultural diversity) I digged into Low Saxon. The fact, that I voted for
the Frisian Party in our last election is proof, that I am interested in
cultural diversity and not in Low Saxon alone. I was the only one who
voted for the Frisian Party in my electoral district. The few whom I
told about it said "How could you!? You have to vote for somebody
representing our region!" (region, not language or culture or whatever).
My mother was polling clerk and told me, the other polling clerks were
all puzzled about this one vote for the Frisians. If this vote would
have been for the far right NPD (we luckily had none in our local
district) they probably wouldn't have been that puzzled, but Frisian?
That was too odd.

And, by the way, I am fully aware, that my concepts of "keep the
cultures apart and enjoy their distinctiveness" and of translating
American popular culture like South Park into Low Saxon are quite
contrary. But you have to fetch the people  from where they are and
re-accustom them to the distinctive culture.

This was lengthy again. And much of "don't like leftists" ;-)
Disclaimer: I actually have nothing against most left ideas or any
leftist personally. Just don't like some of the dynamics and memes of
the leftish milieu.

Disclaimer: This post provides few "hard facts" and much personal
opinion of mine. If you are not interested in my personal quarrels with
reality, please save some minutes of your live and don't read it ;-)

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
>
> In a nutshell, what I meant was that release from confinement is
> needed, in _all_ direction, not only in unconventional and
> "sophisticated" (/anspruchsvolle/) art but also in pop culture and
> everyday spheres. And for all I care those that like it can continue
> the /Heimattümelei/ tradition.
Even if you say, you accept it, please don't use the word
"Heimattümelei". The leftists (I frankly admit, that I don't like
leftists. I admire the theories of Marx and share many left ideas, but I
accept neither the socialist or communist systems as implemented in any
country ever nor todays leftists with their ideas of egality which don't
source in human rights but in opposition to Nazistic ideas [immigration
is great! Why? Cause it angers the Neo-Nazis!]) who embroadened the use
of the word "Heimattümelei" and hence connecting "Heimatverbundenheit"
and maintenance of values and culture with Nazism. Think of the the
expellees from former eastern Germany. For 60 years they advocated to be
allowed to reenter their "Heimat". Okay, it's illusory to think there
would be any chance to change anything about it after 60 years, but it
was realistic in the beginning and I can't resent that they are still
discontent. If I had to leave my heimat forever, knowing, that after I
leave, this heimat will cease to exist, I would be unhappy too for all
the rest of my life. Still, if "expellees from the former German east"
are mentioned publicly, the phantom thought of Nazism does emerge
somewhere back in the minds. In public opinion the concepts "expellees"
and "Nazism" are intertwined. The opinion research center Allensbach
recently made a public opinion poll about "Which dialects do you like to
hear most and which don't you like at all" (I reported about it in my
personal Platt blog or Plog too <http://opplatt.blogspot.com/>). Despite
the fact, that few of the answering people will have heard any eastern
dialects in recent time, all the eastern dialects which were included in
the poll (Pommersch, Schlesisch, Ostpreußisch) had more dislikers than
likers. <http://www.ifd-allensbach.de/pdf/prd_0804.pdf>
Or think of "Trachten". In German public opinion "Tracht" is connected
to "Volksmusik", to "villagers" and that's all the same just regarded
"backwards". Lagged behind a hundred years. Of course it is! Nobody
would argue, that a medieval market is "backwards" or "lagged behind".
medieval markets are "cool". So why is a part of history hat people
still can remember backwards, but a part of history from far away "dark
ages" cool? It's just a difference in the image in public opinion. (I
speak of public opinion and the opinion leaders in media. The "real"
opinion of most of the "non opinion leaders" is more balanced actually)
If wanting to keep up your heimat, your heimat language, your heimat
culture is connected to Nazism there is few chance to keep up Low Saxon.
Lot's of sermon on a little word ;-)
> "Ordinary" and "popular" is important; I'm all with you there. But
> "sophisticated" is also needed for the sake of image and for the sake
> of stretching and experimenting. Most people have been led to believe
> that the language is too lowly to be a "world literature language,"
> something that is quite wrong. A real language ought to be allowed and
> able to dance at all balls and to all manner of music.
>
> You are quite right. Use in areas of mass appeal is a very good way of
> popularization. But why only have one tune? Where there's pop, rock
> and country music, why not also have classical music, /koto /music and
> African drums? Besides popularizing, we also need to demonstrate
> variety. Otherwise you end up with another box, just a different color
> one. Enough with the boxes! Open the lids and let it fly wherever it may!
Of course, when I advocated to give up writing Haikus or Wikipedia or
Shakespeare, I don't really meant to say "Give it up!" ;-) But when
there is some Shakespeare, some Haikus and some Wikipedia in Low Saxon,
there is no modern popular culture at all. Perhaps I should have said:
Keep on with Shakespeare, Haikus and Wikipedia in Low Saxon and stop
wasting your time with "friends", "family" or "sleeping all night long"!
Invest it into doing more Shakespeare, more Haikus, more Wikipedia and
additionally some popular culture in Low Saxon! ;-)

I am by the way a bit ambiguous about African drums ;-) I love original
African music and all kinds of "real" folk music, music that is embedded
in a centuries old cultural tradition (I recently found a nice site with
Lushnu [language of {Caucasian} Georgia] songs, great, just great), but
I actually don't like those dread-lock, pod-smoking
Hippies/Greenies/tree-huggers (whatever may be the most fitting term for
German "Alternative") who do drum concerts against the G8 meetup or
whatever. That's just "Hey look, I am so much appreciating foreign
non-mainstream cultures, but I don't give a tinker's damn on my own
culture!"
I am a fan of letting everybody do his own job. Let the Africans do the
African music/culture etc. and let the Saxons do the Saxon things. This
does not mean you can't enjoy the others culture and I don't want to
forbid references or cultural transfers, but you have to keep your own
distinctive culture. At the moment at least there is a tendency of
merging all the cultures into a world culture (which will obviously be
led by the American culture).
My concecpt of "keeping the cultures apart and enjoy their
distinctiveness" is actually not new... I am afraid. "Ethnopluralism"
sounds like a nice word, doesn't it? But if you look it up on Wikipedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnopluralism> it says, the concept is
connected to far right politics. And once again I am connected to Nazism
only cause I want to keep up my own culture. This is not fair! I am not
evil! I don't hate anybody! (not even the leftists who want to peg me as
Nazi ;-) ) I like all cultures! I only want to take measures to assure,
that I (and others) can still enjoy Lushnu music or original African
drum music or Low Saxon poems in 50, 100 or 200 years from now. Cause if
we don't take any measures, Lushnu maybe will be extinct and replaced by
Georgian. Low Saxon by German and the people of the Bata tribe won't do
the drums but will wear baseball caps and hear the music of the American
ghetto gangster rappers of the future (who of course won't live in the
ghettos, but in luxurious mansions in gated communities).

I am actually not involved in Low Saxon, cause I love Low Saxon in the
first way (I do, but this is only the second most important reason), but
I took a detour. I love cultural diversity. Diversity of original
culture. And cause Low Saxon language and culture was the only one to
which I can claim any nativeness (besides Standard German language and
culture, but engaging in that is too mainstream to have an effect on
cultural diversity) I digged into Low Saxon. The fact, that I voted for
the Frisian Party in our last election is proof, that I am interested in
cultural diversity and not in Low Saxon alone. I was the only one who
voted for the Frisian Party in my electoral district. The few whom I
told about it said "How could you!? You have to vote for somebody
representing our region!" (region, not language or culture or whatever).
My mother was polling clerk and told me, the other polling clerks were
all puzzled about this one vote for the Frisians. If this vote would
have been for the far right NPD (we luckily had none in our local
district) they probably wouldn't have been that puzzled, but Frisian?
That was too odd.

And, by the way, I am fully aware, that my concepts of "keep the
cultures apart and enjoy their distinctiveness" and of translating
American popular culture like South Park into Low Saxon are quite
contrary. But you have to fetch the people  from where they are and
re-accustom them to the distinctive culture.

This was lengthy again. And much of "don't like leftists" ;-)
Disclaimer: I actually have nothing against most left ideas or any
leftist personally. Just don't like some of the dynamics and memes of
the leftish milieu.

Marcus Buck
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