LL-L "History" 2008.05.12 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 12 May 2008 - Volume 01
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.05.11

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Many of you will remember us mentioning Scottish (besides Dutch-speaking)
immigration to Prussia. Some of you may be interested in
ElectricScotlands.com's republished list of Scottish members of merchant
guilds in Western and Eastern Prussia:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/prussia/part3-3.htm


Would you (or anybody else) know if Scottish culture left a footprint on
Prussian society? I'm talking about stuff that we can still see or witness
today (could be linguistic, architectural, gastronomic, folkloric, musical,
religious...whatever).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LLL-L "History" 2008.05.11 (03) [E]

Interesting, very interesting. Is there something left to be found of
Dutch or Scottish/Scots names, toponyms, genetics, stories etc. in the
area? Or was there before WW II - I suppose the people with Dutch and
Scot(ti)s(h) ancestors just were considered (Low) German, were in the mean
time indistinguishable, and expelled together with the rest after the war?

Ingmar

Btw I wonder how the Polish, Lithuanian and Russian names were made up for
the German ones. Many resemble them in sound more or less, some not at all
but seem translations, others, well I don't know, maybe these were the
old, pre-German original names? And where did the German/Low Saxon ones
come from themselves, just colonial names such as obviously Johannisburg
must be - would there be a connection with that other Jo'burg?
From Baltic Prussian sometimes I suppose, or from Slavonic?
E.g. in a sequence such as Insterburg (G.) = Chernyakhovsk / Черняховск
(R), Wystruć (P.), Įsrūtis (L.), all but the Russian name seem related by
sound. Same in Braunsberg (G.) = Braniewo (P., formerly P. Brunsberga),
Prūsa (L.), at least I can imagine that the Lithuanian name comes from Low
Saxon Bruns..., as well.

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Dear Lowlanders,

Many of you will remember us mentioning Scottish (besides Dutch-speaking)
immigration to Prussia. Some of you may be interested in
ElectricScotlands.com's republished list of Scottish members of merchant
guilds in Western and Eastern Prussia:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/prussia/part3-3.htm

Only German place names are given in the list. Please find their Lithuanian
(L.), Polish (P.) and Russian (R.) equivalents below (non-italic bold
versions now being the official ones in English):

*Western Prussia*:

  - *Deutsch Krone** *=* Wałcz* (P.)
  - *Elbing* = *Elbląg* (P.)
  - *Konitz* = *Chojnice* (P.), *Chònice* (Kashubian)
  - *Marienburg* = *Malbork* (P.)
  - *Marienwerder* = *Kwidzyn* (P.)
  - *Neuenburg* = *Nowe* (P*.*)
  - *Stuhm* = *Sztum* (P.)
  - *Thorn* = *Toruń* (P.)

*Eastern Prussia*:

  - *Angerburg* = *Węgorzewo* (P., previously P. *Węgobork*)
  - *Barten* = *Barciany* (P.), *Barčianiai* (L.)
  - *Bartenstein* = *Bartoszyce* (P.), *Baršteinas* (L.)
  - *Braunsberg* = *Braniewo* (P., formerly P. *Brunsberga*), *Prūsa* (L.)
  - *Fischhausen *= *Primorsk *(*Приморск*, R.), *Rybaki* (P.),
*Žuvininkai
  ~ Skanavikas* (L.)
  - *Goldap *= *Gołdap *(P.), *Geldapė* (L.)
  - *Insterburg* = *Chernyakhovsk* (*Черняховск*, R.), *Wystruć* (P.), *
  Įsrūtis* (L.)
  - *Johannisburg* = *Pisz* (P., previously P. *Jańsbork*)
  - *Königsberg *= Kaliningrad (*Калининград*, R.), *Królewiec* (P.), *
  Karaliaučius* (L.)
  - *Memel *= *Klaipėda *(L.)
  - *Ortelsburg* = *Szczytno* (P.)
  - *Preußisch Holland* ("Prussian Holland") = *Pasłęk* (P.)
  - *Ragnit* = *Neman* (*Неман*, R.), *Ragneta* (P.), *Ragainė* (L.)
  - *Rastenburg* = *Kętrzyn* (P., previously P. *Rastembork*)
  - *Sensburg *= *Mrągowo *(P., previously P. *Żądźbork*)
  - *Tapiau *= *Gvardeysk* (*Гвардейск*, R.), *Tapiawa ~ Tapiewo*
(P.), *Tepliava
  ~ Tepliuva* (L.)
  - *Tilsit *= *Sovetsk *(*Советск*, R.), *Tylża* (P.), *Tilžė* (L.)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Luc, Ingmar and all!

I don't know if there are any traces of Scottish communities left in those
places. I do assume that much or all of those communities eventually
integrated into other communities. We should, however, not assume that this
involved only the "German" communities.

Even on these old lists there are signs of "Germanization" in names:
Gertner, Koch, (Colburn >?) Kolborn, (Cunningham >) Königheim, Krehl,
(Macmillan >) Mackmüller, (Patterson >?) Patrszin*, Reise, Stein, (Wier,
Weir? >) Weyer and Wieland.

(* *sz* has nothing to do with Polish but is a commonly used German device
of the time, the predecessor of *ß* to indicate [s] rather than [z].)

Note that the majority of names seem to indicate Lowlands Scottish origin.

And then there is the place names (not mentioned on the list) Gdańsk Nowe
Szkoty (Kashubian *Gduńsk Nowy Szotland*, German *Danzig Neuschottland*) in
Kashubia, Northern Poland.

Since German and Low Saxon competed in those parts, and German rose to the
top with the 17th century, it could well be that Scottish merchants tended
to go for German, at least those in guilds and thus economically better off.

I think it would be a nice service to use this information with the place
name key and a map in a brief Travels presentation (
http://lowlands-l.net/travels/). This may be of interest especially to
people of Scottish background, including those that wish to do some
research. I am pretty sure that, now that these places are freely
accessible, more material can be found, such as in local registers. Also,
there ought to be some relevant buildings left.

The same can be said about the early Dutch-speaking communities. But this is
a much larger, widespread and complex situation.

Ingmar, the place name situation seems to be rather complex. In many cases
German names started off being "inspired" by indigenous names.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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