LL-L "History" 2008.05.19 (03) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 19 May 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

What about a possible Frisian element? Erstwhile Frisian-speaking presence
is definitely attested all the way from what is now Belgium to Land Wursten
at the southern end of the mouth of the Elbe, on the island of Heligoland
off the mouth of the Elbe and then again north of Dithmarschen into the
southwest of what is now the Danish part of the Jutland Peninsula. Going by
a place name like Büsum, I wonder if there used to be some Frisian presence
in Dithmarschen as well.

Like Jonny wrote, I believe "water" is truly the main shaping force of the
Lowlands. The North Sea must have left a lasting impression on the character
of these coast dwellers.

We're dealing with low lying lands here, so dikes are first-rate lifesavers.
Building dikes and maintaining them is not the work of a loner, it requires
team spirit and perseverance. What you called "conservatism" in one of your
messages, may actually be the flipside of "perseverance". Qualities I seem
to find here in Belgium very prevalent in the West and less in the East.

That same sea (no matter how dangerous it can be at times), will never limit
your view though. A sense of "freedom" is always at hand, half the world is
litterally yours (180°). This makes for venturesome folks (putting it mildly
;-) ). Hence the knee-jerk reaction to whatever comes from "outside". Be it
Franks, religion, whatever. Famous Flemish saying goes like: "What we can
achieve ourselves, nobody else can do better".

Furthermore, land reclamation in Flanders and Zeeland, was mainly organized
by Flemish monks.
This very fact, the act of creating your own land (and future), seems to
have triggered a firm belief in the effect of (government) policies on
(social) change (in Dutch, more general: "de maakbaarheid van de
maatschappij"). Fatalism is a big no-no in the (lowest) Lowlands. The sky's
the limit.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.05.19 (02) [E]

 We need to bear in mind that with loss of independence Hamburg, which
previously seems to have seen only minor Saxon and pre-Saxon settlements,
came to be set up as a front-line post of Frankish power.  It served as a
spearhead of Frankish interests at the edge of both Jutish Viking and Slavic
Obodrite power domains, as a trading post as well as as a jump-off point for
Christian missionaries to surrounding Saxon, Viking and Slavic communities,
later to the whole of Scandinavia. It therefore came to be periodically
sacked and destroyed by Vikings and Obodrites.

Ron and all,

Where was, as far as we know, the original homeland of the franks? I am not
talking about the Urheimat back in Iran/Anatolia. As far as the Germanic
territories, where did they start from?

Ben

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

I quite agree, Luc, and you certainly touched upon the stuff early
Lowlanders were made of, many still are. First of all, that's why I
said, "there
is a long tradition of what outsiders tend to consider conservatism." But
"conservatism" alone can also be said without value judgment or with
positive value judgment, after all.

What I was driving at was that these early, presumably tough Saxon *
Nordliudi*, living in the earliest known Saxon settlement area where Elbe
meets North Sea, may have done all they could to preserve their proven way
of life even after Saxon defeat and consequent encroachment of Frankish
values via nearby settlements, such as *Hammaburg* (Hamburg) and
*Stethe*(Stade) turned into garrisons of Franco-Roman power.
Furthermore, I had in
mind the question if this foundation of tough survivalist tradition in
conjunction with resentment toward Frankish encroachment somehow survived
over the centuries, where the old "Frankish" came to be transferred to
"Prussian" and then "mainstream German," which has been gradually smothering
(Saxon >) North German language and culture. If this is to be answered in
the affirmative, I would go as far as postulating that they have this in
common with today's remaining identified Frisians both in Germany and the
Netherlands (including those of Eastern Friesland and Emsland who took on
Low Saxon language). Lastly, I was wondering if, most likely to a lower
degree, this applies to "typical" North Germans more generally. People in
Germany's extreme north and extreme south are said to be the most reluctant
Germans, and the reasons for this may well go back very far.

Ben, as far as I know, the earliest known Franks lived along the Lower
Rhine. Their eastern neighbors were Saxons and their northern and western
neighbors were Frisians. I'm sure others will be able to tell you more. Oh,
and yes, the name France (< Latin *Francia*) is said to refer to the land of
the Franks.  However, some have claimed that *frank* was just Germanic for
"free" and that France didn't get its name from *the* Franks. Sure, there
where some "real" Franks there, but the majority of the population was
Celtic with Roman and other Germanic admixtures.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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